Old 11-02-2012, 02:00 PM   #1
Gabriel
Senior Member
 
Gabriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina
Posts: 4,224
Default F***ing unbelievable!

At what time do some airline pilots forget that, over anything else, they are, well, pilots?
And that "fly the plane" is always the first priority?
And that the Primary Flight Display has the words "Primary" and "Flight" on its name for a reason?
And that if you don't understand "what is it doing now", perhaps the best course of action is that YOU start doing something, like flying the damn plane yourself using, you know, the manual flight controls like those available in all planes from the Cessna 150 where you logged your first hour to this hi-tech Airbus where you logged your hour, how much? Oh yes, 23226 (3081 on type) for the capt and 9647 (2410 on type) for the FO????

Next time that something odd happens, would one of you keep the eyes on the PFD and take manual control if necessary while the other one plays with the ECAM, the AP, the AT, the FD, the radar and the radios?

http://avherald.com/h?article=44280b2a/0006&opt=0
Gabriel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 04:54 PM   #2
James Bruno
Member
 
James Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Miami, Florida.
Posts: 153



Send a message via AIM to James Bruno Send a message via Skype™ to James Bruno
Default

Only this would happen to Air France.
__________________
the 747 will always be superior.
James Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 05:16 PM   #3
3WE
Senior Member
 
3WE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,202
Default

Gabriel:

1) Take a deep breath.
2) Remember Eastern Airlines L1011 with a burnt out gear bulb and descending into the FL Everglades.
3) Remember numerous other CFIT where the descent continued even though it shouldn't have.
4) Remember Murphy's Law, Swiss Cheese and the $20 word 'insidious' and the other word 'routine'
5) You've never had a brief attention lapse? I've crashed MSFS more than once, and over 40 years of driving a car- have made a couple errors.

Getting into the situation is oh so very easy. Save your "where's-the-fundamentals" anger for how they get out of (or fail to get out of) the situation.
__________________
"Shit, 3WE was right" Gabriel, The Hell Better Aeroengineer, 7/22/2014.
3WE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 05:32 PM   #4
brianw999
Super Moderator
 
brianw999's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
Posts: 9,616



Default

I couldn't help but smile at this comment later in the forum posts...

Quote:
I think the most shocking thing about this whole incident is that someone managed to get an A343 into a rapid climb...


and this one as well....

Quote:
Fly(Aviate), navigate, communicate. Huh?
Not interfere, announcement, landing lights, hf communication ...


__________________
If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

brianw999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 05:51 PM   #5
Gabriel
Senior Member
 
Gabriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina
Posts: 4,224
Default

3we, have you actually read the AvHerald article?

Quote:
102 seconds after the upset began, the aircraft was descending through 36,500 feet, the pilot flying finally notices the autopilot had disconnected and begins to operate his side stick
Brief attention lapse my arse.

In the mean time, the plane climbed from 3000 ft from 35.000ft to 38.000 ft, reaching a vertical speed of 5700 fpm, the pitch angle increased fro 3 to 12 degrees nose-up, and the speed wnt down from overspeed (M .87) to near stall (M .66 which was 229 kts or 19 kts below the minimum selectable speed).

In the meantime, the pilots:
Did not notice that one of them moved the sidestick and pressed the AP disconnect button.
Did not notice that the AP was off.
Did not notice the pitch, climb rate or airspeed upsets.
Did not hear the altitude alert that sounded when they deviated from their assigned altitude.
And when they noted some of these things, they:
Made PA anouncements
Turned on the landing lights
Changed the range in the navigation display
Called ATC to report turbulence
Tried selecting a higher speed (when they noted that it was too low), of course since the A/T was on it was already TOGAing so selecting a higher speed won't help much, but lowering the nose, perhaps, maybe, but no, it would take another full minute until someone noticed that nobody (human or machine) was flying the plane.
Gabriel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 06:23 PM   #6
Gabriel
Senior Member
 
Gabriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina
Posts: 4,224
Default

Further, after reviewing the official BEA report, I conclude that at least to some extent these pilots and passengers owe their lives to Airbus and its FBW logic that prevented a stall with its alpha-prot function, which was active during most of the time during the incident.
Gabriel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 07:21 PM   #7
akerosid
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 366



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
I couldn't help but smile at this comment later in the forum posts...



and this one as well....


You got there before me, Brian!

I think the thing that surprises me is that these incidents seem to be relatively recent in AF's A330/340 experience; the A330 crash was in 2009, by which time AF had been operating A330s for eight years an A340s for around fifteen years, so hardly a new operator of Airbus FBW types (indeed, on short haul, the very first).

This is around the third such incident with AF (excuding the YYZ A340, which was for different reasons), so what is happening with their training? This is something the BEA needs to look at; what in the AF pilot training syllabus has been cut or even just cut short?

I think the other thing that probably needs to be said is that this incident occurred before the lessons of AF 447 were incorporated into the airline's sim training (which I believe now includes recovery from stalls at high level).
akerosid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 07:23 PM   #8
brianw999
Super Moderator
 
brianw999's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
Posts: 9,616



Default

^^^
Absolutely.

I'm not starting an "A is better than B" argument but it has to be said that if that had been a Boeing the following would probably have been true.....

1. The pilots would have noticed that they were in the shit a damn sight sooner

And

2. The situation would have been even harder to recover.

There is a YouTube video of Bruce Dickinson ( B757 pilot and lead singer of Iron Maiden) doing a very similar thing in an Airbus and comments "If I was to do this in my Boeing we'd be a smoking hole in the ground right now" !!!
__________________
If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

brianw999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 07:53 PM   #9
Gabriel
Senior Member
 
Gabriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina
Posts: 4,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
^^^
Absolutely.

I'm not starting an "A is better than B" argument but it has to be said that if that had been a Boeing the following would probably have been true.....

1. The pilots would have noticed that they were in the shit a damn sight sooner

And

2. The situation would have been even harder to recover.

There is a YouTube video of Bruce Dickinson ( B757 pilot and lead singer of Iron Maiden) doing a very similar thing in an Airbus and comments "If I was to do this in my Boeing we'd be a smoking hole in the ground right now" !!!
Had this been a Boeing, the incident would have not even started since it would be very difficult to pull back on the yoke 75% of its travel without noticing.

Then, in the white zone of the PDF plot (that is where load factor control was into effect) a Boeing left alone would have pitched down and kept the AoA instead of keeping the pitch and increasing the AoA as this Airbus did. However, the airbus never let the AoA get that high as to cause a stall. It would not allow it (in normal law, I mean, a benefit that the famous Rio-Paris flight didn't have).

Note that, except for the 6 seconds of unintentional pull-up, for 104 seconds the airplane flew on its own free of the command of any pilot, be it human or Otto. But had the pilots kept pulling up, the Airbus would have prevented a stall. Not so in a FBW Boeing, which would have attempted to prevent the stall but would have left overriding authority to the human pilot. A 757, that is not FBW, would have done nothing to prevent a stall other than warn of the stall proximity condition. So Bruce Dikinson is right, but what he did (to pull full up and keep doing so) is not what happened in this incident.
Gabriel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 08:19 PM   #10
brianw999
Super Moderator
 
brianw999's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
Posts: 9,616



Default

I therefore stand corrected

Only ever having flown a Piper PA28 I think I'd best keep out of these discussions !
__________________
If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

brianw999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 08:26 PM   #11
Gabriel
Senior Member
 
Gabriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina
Posts: 4,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
I therefore stand corrected

Only ever having flown a Piper PA28 I think I'd best keep out of these discussions !
Had this been a PA28, this incident would have not even started since it would be very difficult to pull back on the yoke 75% of its travel without noticing.

Please, do keep posting. You are the second person in two days that says that will keep from posting because of what I say.
Gabriel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 09:23 PM   #12
brianw999
Super Moderator
 
brianw999's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
Posts: 9,616



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
Had this been a PA28, this incident would have not even started since it would be very difficult to pull back on the yoke 75% of its travel without noticing.

Please, do keep posting. You are the second person in two days that says that will keep from posting because of what I say.
Nothing to do with what you say Gabriel

Everything to do with me not being very technically minded when it comes to airliners.
__________________
If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

brianw999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 09:39 PM   #13
3WE
Senior Member
 
3WE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
3we, have you actually read the AvHerald article?


Brief attention lapse my arse...
It's why flyboy calls me 3BS...running my mouth without all the facts

But...

Just remember- there's a quote on this forum somewhere where it was suggested that Airbus pilots genuinely needed to take on a video-game mentality as opposed to an ITS-Piper Cub-Airmanship-Fundamentals mentality.

And, I do belive I've popped a beer with the TV on in the background and flown some relatively similar maneuvers on MSFS.
__________________
"Shit, 3WE was right" Gabriel, The Hell Better Aeroengineer, 7/22/2014.
3WE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #14
elaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 201
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
Just remember- there's a quote on this forum somewhere where it was suggested that Airbus pilots genuinely needed to take on a video-game mentality as opposed to an ITS-Piper Cub-Airmanship-Fundamentals mentality.
With one key difference: in an Airbus (or Boeing or whatever), unlike in most video games, you get only 1 life!
__________________
Be alert! America needs more lerts.

Eric Law
elaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #15
Deadstick
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 769
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
^^^
Absolutely.

I'm not starting an "A is better than B" argument but it has to be said that if that had been a Boeing the following would probably have been true.....

1. The pilots would have noticed that they were in the shit a damn sight sooner

And

2. The situation would have been even harder to recover.

There is a YouTube video of Bruce Dickinson ( B757 pilot and lead singer of Iron Maiden) doing a very similar thing in an Airbus and comments "If I was to do this in my Boeing we'd be a smoking hole in the ground right now" !!!
Thank you for this Brian! I was completely unaware of this series and that Dickenson even flies. I'm enjoying this greatly, though I haven't found the episode you mention yet. Excellent!
Deadstick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 04:35 PM   #16
Jingogunner
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ipswich UK
Posts: 221
Default It can't climb properly?

[quote=brianw999;601903]I couldn't help but smile at this comment later in the forum posts...


I think the most shocking thing about this whole incident is that someone managed to get an A343 into a rapid climb...



B, bu, but I'm booked with Gulf Air to Bahrain in January and I think its a 330. I never heard that they don't climb very well, Mr brianw999. Is this joke based on actual performance reality, please?
Jingogunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 04:47 PM   #17
SAMRPICS
Member
 
SAMRPICS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Manchester (Knutsford)
Posts: 384
Default

The A330 climbs very well, the A340 climbs slowly and steadily and is refered to by us enthusiasts as powered by 4 hair dryers.
__________________
SAMRPICS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 04:57 PM   #18
Jingogunner
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ipswich UK
Posts: 221
Default Red Smoking Jacket and Lime Green Sneakers

I just looked at the url you gave, Mr Gabriel and I'm puzzled. How could a professional pilot not notice an extreme nose up attitude? Its right there on the big blue and brown screen on the simulator I used and its extremely easy to see and notice if your nose is pointing too much above the brown with a lot of blue showing, even for a professional aviation disaster like me. I've never had a crash or stalled becauseI didn't notice my nose was too upwards pointing. I conclude that there is an unknown psychology at play, here. They were distracted, they missed vital information, they acted unprofessionally. the only possible conclusion is they were distracted. I suspect boredom and Pilot's Fuge where pilots are lulled to a dream state by the little coloured lights, the occassional snapple of the radio, the familiar whirrs clicks and whines of the flight deck. What can be done to ensure this doesn't happen when I fly to India via Bahrain on a 330 of some kind in January? Could I pop up to the FD and offer 5 minutes of stand-up wearing my new red velvet smoking jacket and the lime green sneakers so thoughtfully provided on my recent birthday, by the mother-in-law? Or perhaps I could do some breathing exercises with them. Not the sneakers, I mean with the pilots.
Jingogunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 03:16 AM   #19
Leftseat86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,764
Send a message via AIM to Leftseat86 Send a message via MSN to Leftseat86 Send a message via Yahoo to Leftseat86
Default

Wow...how are some pilots that inept at interpreting their primary flight instruments? This is a serious recurring problem. Reminds me of the Turkish 738 at AMS.

Also the similarities between this and AF447 are telling.
Leftseat86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 12:04 AM   #20
EconomyClass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jingogunner View Post
I just looked at the url you gave, Mr Gabriel and I'm puzzled. How could a professional pilot not notice an extreme nose up attitude? Its right there on the big blue and brown screen on the simulator I used and its extremely easy to see and notice if your nose is pointing too much above the brown with a lot of blue showing, even for a professional aviation disaster like me. I've never had a crash or stalled becauseI didn't notice my nose was too upwards pointing. I conclude that there is an unknown psychology at play, here. They were distracted, they missed vital information, they acted unprofessionally. the only possible conclusion is they were distracted. I suspect boredom and Pilot's Fuge where pilots are lulled to a dream state by the little coloured lights, the occassional snapple of the radio, the familiar whirrs clicks and whines of the flight deck. What can be done to ensure this doesn't happen when I fly to India via Bahrain on a 330 of some kind in January? Could I pop up to the FD and offer 5 minutes of stand-up wearing my new red velvet smoking jacket and the lime green sneakers so thoughtfully provided on my recent birthday, by the mother-in-law? Or perhaps I could do some breathing exercises with them. Not the sneakers, I mean with the pilots.
Same sort of thing I wondered many years ago when a plane plunged into a swamp in Florida because everybody in the cockpit was gathered around some burnt out bulb. I'd like to thing we've advanced a lot since that day. But?
EconomyClass is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:15 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright JetPhotos.Net 2003-2011