ANA 767 lousy landing

[snydersnapshots]

I came across this video of an ANA 767 landing at Narita. The text is in Japanese, but the video speaks for itself.

Anyone with a maintenance background out there: Do you think the crinkle in the fuselage can be repaired or is the airplane a writeoff? I don't know if the keelbeam is bent or it just flexed. Looks nasty either way.

[Highkeas]

Without a detailed inspection it is hard to say if this damage is repairable. But in any case a repair or scrap decision will come down to cost analysis. I've seen some pretty badly damaged aircraft returned to flight status.

[Fear_of_Flying]

Thread already exists:

http://forums.jetphotos.net/showthread.php?t=54132

[snydersnapshots]

Thanks Highkeas. We'll see what happens.

I see now that this incident was covered in another thread. I looked through briefly but didn't see the thread that was started previously. Guess that's what I get for staying up all night..

[James Bruno]

Man that looked like one of my flight sim landings when Im texting at the same time lol

[guamainiac]

Add about three more modulations or bounces via the compression and rebound of the struts and that is exactly what I saw an R-A3 do down in Townsville in the 60's. It was then called porpoising though obviously not done on purpose. Back in the air the next day but of course it did not have that deformed mid-section.

I suppose you must pull out the sharp pencil and factor all of the things from date of manufacture, number of cycles, fuel economy and current market before writing a plane off for parts.

I have seen a few Beavers that were in horrid shape that brought a tidy sum with the demand for Alaskan bush planes on the rise.

Highkeas was right on the mark.

[3WE]

How does that sort of thing happen?

I would think that "the drill" is to keep the nose up regardless of a bounce..

Answer #1 is that this sort of thing does not happen that often.

Still, it seems to happen sometimes.

Is it an aircraft tendency or is it a driver tendency- where they think they can shove the nose over to prevent the subsequent climb?

I guess that's my real question- if you really drill the main gear, can you- with "typical classic" control inputs- keep the plane in a healthy attitude where you will not drill the nose gear- or does the plane have a nasty pitch-down that requires some pretty critical control inputs to manage?

[Vnav]

Originally Posted by 3WE

How does that sort of thing happen?

From another website, the comments of a pilot who landed just prior:

Wasn't as simple as that. Landed at NRT around the same time. Probably just before the aircraft concerned.

Winds observed at 1000 ft agl were 240/58-72 kts, dropping down to 230/48 kts steady at 500 ft. And then there was a +/- 15 kts WS reported. On my observation it was more like +/- 20 kts windshear!

And the turbulence was huge. Moderate to moderate/severe turbulence REPORTED by 4 airplane before me from 500 ft to touchdown. I observed Moderate/Severe all the way down from 500 ft to touchdown.
And BTW the winds reported on ground were 220 to 250 at 28 gusting 44 kts. That's a direct crosswind for the runway in use-16R.
And the winds were spot on!

Airport should have been temporarily closed

[guamainiac]

Vnav, I am certain you are up on this much more than I, but in the landing down in Townsville, it was said that he came over the threshold too high and just simply put the nose down to "force" it onto the runway. At that point the hydraulics compress and rebound and if the pilot continues to force her onto the deck you get a series of "porpoise" like rebounds in what should have been a go-round.

Certainly shifting winds can influence this but in this case it was dead calm but very hot.

In this case, the RA-3B or (Air Force), B-66 being of 1950's vintage probably did not have effective spoilers or air brakes that we take for granted today. Actually the "barn door" for the tail hook was found to be what was killing the crew when they bailed by sliding down the ingress/egress hatch. SOP was to deploy this for any landings or for ditching. It took them 10 years to figure this out meanwhile the bird earned the moniker A3D as being short for "all 3 dead".

[Evan]

Originally Posted by Vnav

From another website, the comments of a pilot who landed just prior:

Airport should have been temporarily closed

Pilot should be temporarily committed. Why would anyone attempt that?

[snydersnapshots]

Originally Posted by Evan

Pilot should be temporarily committed. Why would anyone attempt that?

Because everyone else was and they all made it without a problem. I can almost guarantee that if one guy had called BS and gone around or to an alternate, a bunch more would have as well...

[Evan]

Originally Posted by snydersnapshots

Because everyone else was and they all made it without a problem. I can almost guarantee that if one guy had called BS and gone around or to an alternate, a bunch more would have as well...

Sure, they made it. They also reported moderate to severe turbulence all the way down and the field was reporting crosswinds 28G44kts! And windshear! Sooner or later, someone was going to bend an airplane? If that was a DC-10/MD-11 we would probably be sifting through the ashes right now. Honestly, where is the adult in the room here?

[brianw999]

Where the first sheep goes, others will follow....

....until the first sheep to know what "Abbatoir" means turns around and legs it.....and those behind then follow.

God ! ....... I'm in a deep and meaningful mood today !!

[snydersnapshots]

Originally Posted by Evan

Sure, they made it. They also reported moderate to severe turbulence all the way down and the field was reporting crosswinds 28G44kts! And windshear! Sooner or later, someone was going to bend an airplane? If that was a DC-10/MD-11 we would probably be sifting through the ashes right now. Honestly, where is the adult in the room here?

Not defending their actions, however being adult has nothing to do with it; they're human. For further reading I recommend:

Human Factors in Flight by Frank Hawkins

Human Factors in Multi-Crew Flight Operations by Orlady and Orlady

and Flightdeck Performance: The Human Factor by O'Hare and Roscoe

[Evan]

Originally Posted by snydersnapshots

Not defending their actions, however being adult has nothing to do with it; they're human. For further reading I recommend:

Human Factors in Flight by Frank Hawkins

Human Factors in Multi-Crew Flight Operations by Orlady and Orlady

and Flightdeck Performance: The Human Factor by O'Hare and Roscoe

Thanks snydersnapshots for the reading list. They look interesting. I will try to find them.

But, not having read them, I think you can only take the 'human factors' excuse so far. We're talking about basic, concrete and clearly specified things here: weather conditions. When traffic ahead tells you that they experienced severe turbulence down to the runway and the field is reporting heavy crosswinds and windshear, to proceed means taking a certain calculated risk with other people's lives, and a risk where the calculation doesn't add up to "probably safe". It adds up to "best to hold or divert". If a crew is going to proceed into harm's way simply because they are too stressed or fatigued to divert, then we have a MUCH BIGGER problem up there.

Over and over I see hull loss accidents resulting from stupid landings that obviously should never have been attempted. Ultimately, it is the Capt to decide to continue. As I've argued unsuccessfully in the past, this decision should be restricted by regulations regarding weather over the field, and the field should have the final say in approving or denying the approach. We have sensible minima for visibility but apparently not for winds or the potential for windshear. The field should have been temporarily closed even before this incident. There's no reason why flying needs to be this dangerous.

[Vnav]

Evan,

I have to work a flight later today to Tampa, straight into tropical storm Debby. Should I call in sick right now

[Evan]

Originally Posted by Vnav

Evan,

I have to work a flight later today to Tampa, straight into tropical storm Debby. Should I call in sick right now

As long as it doesn't absolutely have to land in Tampa, and the pilots are adult enough to make good decisions, with your safety as the determining factor, then go ahead.

[Vnav]

Originally Posted by Evan

....and the pilots are adult enough to make good decisions.

Well, there's my problem right there......



My point is that if you look at the radar for the gulf coast of Florida right now, it is a solid wall of T-storms with tops above FL400. The recent METARs/TAF have heavy torrential rain and crosswinds of 25 gusting to 40kts. I can guarantee you tha there is going to be windshears of +/-15 kts and moderate turbulence. By your definitions, nobody should even be attempting to get in....and yet I've checked our schedule for the entire day and havent found one single CANX or divert.

If we shut off landings everytime there was a line of T-storms in the southeast during summertime or 30 kt gusting crosswinds in the the northeast after Low Pressure system rolls through in the winter, or there was snow on the runway, etc, etc, we'd never land anywhere. The air travel system would grind to a halt and you as a PAX would be the first one screaming about your delayed flight.

[3WE]

Originally Posted by Vnav

Evan,

I have to work a flight later today to Tampa, straight into tropical storm Debby. Should I call in sick right now?

Thanks always for your insight- and the topic of how intelligent pilots (correction- I mean adult pilots) on-board radar, holes in storms, and ATC all work together to keep the US air transportation system moving (sometimes sluggishly, but NONE THE LESS moving) through stormy areas is well documented.

As is the "herd mentality" (and the genuine safety value of a pirep (official pirep, or just knowing the dude made it) from someone 3 minutes ahead).

I think Les Abend (or maybe his predicessor) wrote an article in Flying about landing at San Antonio when a tropical storm was just hitting...as I recall he encountered 'extreme' winds, but turbulence was not so bad- and let Otto do 'everything' on the approach with him watching.

But back to the drilled nose wheel and need for Verbal's plastic surgery team- if someone reports "severe turbulence" on short final- I guess I could argue from my arm chair that it might be a good idea to call off landings for 5 or 10 min...and then someone could go back and try it again- being ready for severe turbulence.

...of course, one counter argument- and one you even learn in private pilot school- is that winds settle significantly in the last 50 to 100 feet above ground....(except when they don't).

...and another thing- Flying Wild Alaska is back on- they certainly have lots of impressive footage of operating in strong, gusty crosswinds in smaller planes- it seems the wind is never too strong for them.

[guamainiac]

Vnav' my memory sure fails me a lot but aren't you serving on the flight deck or as crew on an Orion?

They had a few of those doing duty as "Typhoon Trackers" when I was stationed at NAS Guam in the 1960's, if my memory is right they had a reputation for being built like the proverbial brick .... house

Better you than me for sure ..