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JetBlue 1416

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  • JetBlue 1416

    sounds like an engine fire, 4 injured. Surprised the FA deployed masks, also surprised the blew the slides...





    Daugherty Field (KLGB) is currently experiencing departure delays of 16 minutes to 30 minutes (and increasing) due to a disabled aircraft on a runway.
    moving quickly in air

  • #2
    From pax accounts it sounds like a contained failure and a direct return landing heavy. Why call 'brace"? Why the slides and WHY the slide overwing on the #2 side?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Why call 'brace"?
      SOP in engine failed landings.
      Why the slides and WHY the slide overwing on the #2 side?
      Apparently the flight crew was not confident that the fire was extinguished and ordered an evacuation. They informed the tower that they were going to evacuate and asked the tower if they could see any smoke. The tower answered negative ant the flight crew informed the tower that they were cancelling the evacuation. Too late it seems.

      All 6 slides were used. Odd when there is suspicion that there can be a fire. Normally, if there is a fire (real or suspected) in the right side the flight crew will command "evacuation, left side only". Especially odd that they used the overwing slide on the side where they suspected there might be an ongoing engine fire. Maybe a passenger opened said emergency exit in spite of the cabin crew.

      The airplane had not reached 10000ft, so there is no reason for the masks to self-deploy even if the airplane had become completely unpressurized (which probably didn't anyway). Apparently the crew released the masks because the cabin filled with smoke, although I don't know how helpful these masks may be to fight smoke, since you just keep breathing the cabin air just enriched with additional O2.

      More info and photos in AvHerald:
      Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

      Comment


      • #4
        atc audio:

        moving quickly in air

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          SOP in engine failed landings.
          Seems a bit excessive to scare the pax like that.
          The airplane had not reached 10000ft, so there is no reason for the masks to self-deploy even if the airplane had become completely unpressurized (which probably didn't anyway). Apparently the crew released the masks because the cabin filled with smoke, although I don't know how helpful these masks may be to fight smoke, since you just keep breathing the cabin air just enriched with additional O2.
          Perhaps they did this for psychological reasons. If the cabin fills with smoke, I want to at least believe I am not breathing it. A better idea might be to open the ram air ventilation, which they hopefully did.

          I wonder if a passenger opened the overwing exit.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            More info and photos in AvHerald:
            http://avherald.com/h?article=47a83a2d&opt=0
            Originally posted by AV Herald
            the crew reported a fire indication for the right hand engine (V2527)

            The airline reported the crew received an overheat indication for the right hand engine.
            Hmmm... which was it? External or internal fire?

            Comment


            • #7
              Human psychology goes a long way here in reducing panic levels. 99% of airline passengers don't have a clue about what should and what should not happen in an emergency.
              If they see O2 masks dropping in a smokey cabin then they feel more calm as they perceive this action to be occurring for their benefit. This reduces their tendency to panic and therefore increases the chances of an orderly evacuation. Dropping masks also gives them something to concentrate on, something to occupy their minds and most importantly, keep them in their seats.
              On the subject of overwing exits. I've only ever once been given specific instructions on when to open one, I.e specifically on the cabin crews' instruction. Every other time, and there's been a lot of them, I've been left to my own devices. I've sometimes wondered if it would not be a good idea to have the overwing exits electronically locked until crew members release the locks when that exit is considered safe to use. The idea of a panicking passenger opening a door over a blazing engine does not appeal to me.
              If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                Human psychology goes a long way here in reducing panic levels. 99% of airline passengers don't have a clue about what should and what should not happen in an emergency.
                If they see O2 masks dropping in a smokey cabin then they feel more calm as they perceive this action to be occurring for their benefit. This reduces their tendency to panic and therefore increases the chances of an orderly evacuation. Dropping masks also gives them something to concentrate on, something to occupy their minds and most importantly, keep them in their seats.
                On the subject of overwing exits. I've only ever once been given specific instructions on when to open one, I.e specifically on the cabin crews' instruction. Every other time, and there's been a lot of them, I've been left to my own devices. I've sometimes wondered if it would not be a good idea to have the overwing exits electronically locked until crew members release the locks when that exit is considered safe to use. The idea of a panicking passenger opening a door over a blazing engine does not appeal to me.
                NO!!! bad idea! Nothing should prevent the opening of emergency exits except air pressure. I can just see some disaster where the crew was incapacitated and the passengers couldn't open the exits.

                I agree though that haivng some action to take helps panic, so donning the mask gives some feeling of control perhaps. As for the exit, if I was sitting next to the wing exit on the tarmac in a cabin filled with acrid, potentially harmful smoke I would want to get the f out of there. I think I would first feel the door for heat and glance out the window for fire, but really, who knows what you will do until you find yourself in that situation. It's probably for the best anyway because I imagine it would take another 45 mins of legal negotiations to get an airstairs out there.

                Comment


                • #9
                  This morning's news had all the on-board cell phone photos/video...the cabin was pretty smokey and after seeing the pics, heck yeah- pop the slides and get the hell out!

                  ...and it makes you wonder if there doesn't need to be better systems to shut off air from a 'blown' engine. I'm sure there are well thought out systems, but they didn't work that well here. Maybe something do do with cheap composites, or FBW systems.

                  There were also accounts that they needed 02 masks and that they didn't all drop- and that the hosties and hosthes were having to manually deploy them.

                  The morning media was most assuring; however, stating that plane's are able to fly on one engine.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Surely deploying the O2 manually can only be bad in this case. Below 10,000ft a fire on an aircraft is the same as a fire in a building - cover your nose & mouth with cloth (wet if possible) but do NOT add oxygen into to the mix!

                    As a previous poster said, the psgr masks will leave you breathing the cabin air, just with a richer O2 mixture. Pilot masks are different. Psgr masks are to keep you alive, pilot masks are to keep you awake. And if I'm not mistaken, the O2 system on this Airbus is of the chemical generator type - they produce heat as they produce the oxygen. Not good in a potential fire situation.
                    Yet another AD.com convert!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      ...and it makes you wonder if there doesn't need to be better systems to shut off air from a 'blown' engine. I'm sure there are well thought out systems, but they didn't work that well here. Maybe something do do with cheap composites, or FBW systems.
                      The fire handle isolates the engine, including shutting the bleed air valves. But the fire handle might not have been used. Reports are confusing, between high EGT and actual fire detection. Fire detection means the fire exists outside the engine core and triggers thermal sensors in the nacelle. But a high EGT warning could mean a compressor stall and the fire handle will do nothing for a contained internal engine fire (although I don't know that a tailpipe fire can occur in the air). Passengers reported hearing a load bang which is consistent with a compressor stall. Since there seems to be no visable damage I suspect it was not an uncontained failure, but a fuel/oil/hydro line leak could also result in an external fire. During a compressor stall the crew needs to shut down the bleed air manually. Cabin fumes are often reported during a compressor stall, but not like this...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mawheatley View Post
                        Surely deploying the O2 manually can only be bad in this case. Below 10,000ft a fire on an aircraft is the same as a fire in a building - cover your nose & mouth with cloth (wet if possible) but do NOT add oxygen into to the mix!

                        As a previous poster said, the psgr masks will leave you breathing the cabin air, just with a richer O2 mixture. Pilot masks are different. Psgr masks are to keep you alive, pilot masks are to keep you awake. And if I'm not mistaken, the O2 system on this Airbus is of the chemical generator type - they produce heat as they produce the oxygen. Not good in a potential fire situation.
                        If it was a fire at all, then it was an ENGINE fire.
                        Do you know where the engine is located? There is no way whatsoever for the O2 to reach the engine.

                        And the mask don't "just" enrich the cabin air. They mix cabin air (smoky in this case) with smoke-free, pure O2. So the resultant gas that you breathe has less smoke/fumes than the cabin air (and, yes, also more O2).

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                          Human psychology goes a long way here in reducing panic levels. 99% of airline passengers don't have a clue about what should and what should not happen in an emergency.
                          If they see O2 masks dropping in a smokey cabin then they feel more calm as they perceive this action to be occurring for their benefit. This reduces their tendency to panic and therefore increases the chances of an orderly evacuation. Dropping masks also gives them something to concentrate on, something to occupy their minds and most importantly, keep them in their seats.
                          On the subject of overwing exits. I've only ever once been given specific instructions on when to open one, I.e specifically on the cabin crews' instruction. Every other time, and there's been a lot of them, I've been left to my own devices. I've sometimes wondered if it would not be a good idea to have the overwing exits electronically locked until crew members release the locks when that exit is considered safe to use. The idea of a panicking passenger opening a door over a blazing engine does not appeal to me.

                          Only problem with that Brian is what if the crew is incapacitated or dead?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            If it was a fire at all, then it was an ENGINE fire.
                            Do you know where the engine is located? There is no way whatsoever for the O2 to reach the engine.
                            Too easy to play devils advocate.

                            The pilots apparently did not have a clear fire indication and since it's all very dependent on wires and electronics who says there isn't a cabin fire causing crazy engine readings....

                            And all that high pressure engine bypass air... Who says it wouldn't blow a nice little fireball up the pipe and ignite something in the cabin....

                            O2 in the cabin won't fuel an engine fire but would fuel a cabin fire....
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              Who says it wouldn't blow a nice little fireball up the pipe and ignite something in the cabin....
                              Like St. Elmos' Fire? An intelligent little spark that can withstand the pressure in the line, find its way past the pack valves, the hot air valves, the trim valves, the packs themselves, the mixing manifold...

                              A real threat. Best to let the passengers choke.

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