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Contrails as harmful as C02 emissions?

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  • Contrails as harmful as C02 emissions?

    Add another element into your flight planning...

    Avoiding a major contrail on a flight to New York from London would only add 22km to the journey, experts say.

    "The mitigation targets currently adopted by governments all around the world do not yet address the important non-CO2 climate impacts of aviation, such as contrails, which may cause a climate impact as large, or even larger, than the climate impact of aviation CO2 emissions," said Dr Irvine.
    Is anyone in the industry taking this seriously?

    Condensation trails in the sky caused by aircraft could be eliminated by re-routing flight paths, say scientists.

  • #2
    First I hear of it.

    Comment


    • #3
      The basic combustion reaction of any hydrocarbon fuel (from wood to alcohol) is:

      (4)CxHy + (4x+y)O2 = (4x)CO2 + (2y)H2O + E

      Which in plain language means that the hydrocarbon in the fuel combines with the oxygen in the air to release energy and leave as byprodcuts lots of carbon dioxide and water vapor (what contrails are made of), both very well known greenhouse gases.

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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      • #4
        It's all a scientific wind up. It's just a load of hot air !!
        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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        • #5
          Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
          It's all a scientific wind up. It's just a load of hot air !!
          Nope. A mix of hot combustion gases and cold air.
          Air stops being air the moment the O2 is removed and replaced with CO2 and H2O.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            It's all a scientific wind up. It's just a load of hot air !!

            They just don't get us do they? A couple of dinosaurs we are!

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            • #7
              Contrails can seed the upper atmosphere and form almost 100% cover of thin cirrus.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                Nope. A mix of hot combustion gases and cold air.
                Air stops being air the moment the O2 is removed and replaced with CO2 and H2O.
                What a about the chunk of nitrogen that goes along for the ride and even gets involved a little in the chemistry!
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #9
                  Nitrogen.....Aaaaaahhhh, that must be why there are bends in contrails.

                  (You have to be a SCUBA diver to get that one )
                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                  • #10
                    What I find naive here is the idea that flights can simply shift a bit this way or that depending on the atmospheric conditions, as if there are no such things as airways and waypoints. It sounds like chaos really. I wonder if these scientists have any idea how navigation works.

                    But the problem is apparently quite serious and must be dealt with. So what do we do? Throw out the airway system? And what keeps things civilized up there after that?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                      Nitrogen.....Aaaaaahhhh, that must be why there are bends in contrails.

                      (You have to be a SCUBA diver to get that one )
                      Don't quit your day job……….but yes it was humorous!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        What I find naive here is the idea that flights can simply shift a bit this way or that depending on the atmospheric conditions, as if there are no such things as airways and waypoints. It sounds like chaos really. I wonder if these scientists have any idea how navigation works.

                        But the problem is apparently quite serious and must be dealt with. So what do we do? Throw out the airway system? And what keeps things civilized up there after that?
                        Next Gen.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am still amazed at some of the curves and routings that planes fly....it burns a chunk of kerosene!
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                          • #14
                            I remember this a number of years ago - there was a scientific study that showed that contrails did have an effect on increasing temperature. Pre-dated the madness about 'climate change'. Not sure how rigorous that was though!

                            And Evan, you'd be surprised what changes we COULD make if we wanted to. 'Flex tracks' are becoming more and more common, as are selecting routings to avoid certain areas, tracks and countries.

                            We could move things around a fair bit if we really wanted to.

                            Be nice if we removed some of the big kinks out of air routes!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MCM View Post
                              I remember this a number of years ago - there was a scientific study that showed that contrails did have an effect on increasing temperature. Pre-dated the madness about 'climate change'. Not sure how rigorous that was though!
                              I wonder if you're thinking of the post 9/11 studies referenced here.

                              Are vapor trails from aircraft influencing the climate?


                              It's quite obvious that heavy persistent contrails that spread into thick and vast cirrus layers will have an effect on the climate. They become part of the weather.

                              They don't have an effect on temperature the same way greenhouse gasses, or the overall effects of climate change do, but they definitely must have some effect. Whether that effect has been accurately understood and measured yet is still up for debate, I think there is probably a lot more work to be done.

                              And Brian, I quite enjoyed both puns, thank you.

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