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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Bild daily reported last week that Lubitz told his doctors he was on anti-depressants and Lorazepam, a mild tranquiliser used to treat anxiety.

    'Mild' is putting it mildly. One side effect of long-term use of benzodiazepines like Lorazepam is impaired short-term memory and recall. This is one of the principal reasons many doctors avoid prescribing benzodiazepines as a long-term solution to general anxiety. Another issue is the tolerance-building effect of the brain's chemistry to adapt to them, requiring an ever-increasing dosage to achieve the same efficacy. Heavy users of these drugs can find themselves in a state of perpetual withdrawal if they don't increase the dosage, while increasing the dosage compounds the debilitating memory effects. And the side effect of this tolerance is increased anxiety and even increased depression. Even within this class of drugs there are safer (but still problematic) alternatives. WIth their relatively short half-life, Lorazepam and Alprazolam are two of the more problematic ones.

    Benzodiazepines must be severely controlled in professions such as this. They are relatively harmless in low doses if taken occasionally but they must never be used chronically. They are also one the most abused pharmaceuticals, with many users exceeding their prescribed dosage. The compounding effects of increased anxiety and mental confusion contradict everything that is vital in piloting. A pilot on a daily regimen of benzodiazepines should never be considered fit to fly.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Bild daily reported last week that Lubitz told his doctors he was on anti-depressants and Lorazepam, a mild tranquiliser used to treat anxiety.

      'Mild' is putting it mildly. One side effect of long-term use of benzodiazepines like Lorazepam is impaired short-term memory and recall. This is one of the principal reasons many doctors avoid prescribing benzodiazepines as a long-term solution to general anxiety. Another issue is the tolerance-building effect of the brain's chemistry to adapt to them, requiring an ever-increasing dosage to achieve the same efficacy. Heavy users of these drugs can find themselves in a state of perpetual withdrawal if they don't increase the dosage, while increasing the dosage compounds the debilitating memory effects. And the side effect of this tolerance is increased anxiety and even increased depression. Even within this class of drugs there are safer (but still problematic) alternatives. WIth their relatively short half-life, Lorazepam and Alprazolam are two of the more problematic ones.

      Benzodiazepams must be severely controlled in professions such as this. They are relatively harmless in low doses if taken occasionally but they must never be used chronically. They are also one the most abused pharmaceuticals, with many users exceeding their prescribed dosage. The compounding effects of increased anxiety and mental confusion contradict everything that is vital in piloting. A pilot on a daily regimen of benzodiazepines should never be considered fit to fly.
      Persons taking Diazepines such as Lorazepam should get 8 hours of good quality sleep post ingestion, which of course is what all pilots get every day, especially the ones suffering from psychoses !

      ....and it clearly states on the product instructions...."Do not drive or operate machinery" !!!
      Last edited by brianw999; 2015-04-07, 10:51.
      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

      Comment


      • From a human garbage standpoint, this story just gets worse and worse...

        A woman who obtained multiple free flights to southern France by pretending to be the cousin of a Germanwings flight 4U9525 victim now faces legal action by the airline's parent company Lufthansa.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Evan View Post
          From a human garbage standpoint, this story just gets worse and worse...

          http://www.thelocal.de/20150409/germ...r-free-flights
          Requires a prison sentence.....and a good, old fashioned bitch-slapping when she gets there. Lowlife.
          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

          Comment


          • Always going to be a few try it on. This is one who slipped through the net, but I'll bet there are others who have tried.

            Good on Lufthansa and others for making a streamlined process - I hope they continue to do so, and recover costs from those taking the mickey afterwards, rather than make life harder for those genuinely involved.

            I wish it were possible to say that it is human nature to be good and respectful, but I think there's enough ratbags out there to show that its not outlier behaviour .

            Comment


            • One month + 1 day. The federal president of Germany, Joachim Gauck, in his former function as a priest, held a service in the biggest church of Northrhine-Westphalia,
              the Cologne Cathedral.

              And it was good. I was not there, but it was transmitted nationwide, on all important TV stations.

              Sometimes we are not able to rescue ill persons.

              Most probably, Brian wants to second that.
              Pilots don't want to be confused with "the Gods in White", as I stated earlier here in this forum. It's an expression for SAR personnel, for doctors and paramedics.

              But this happening should be an alert. Your brother, your son, your husband, your boyfriend needs love.

              Although we all sometimes tend to be macho. Or, better said, especially in this case.



              PS: Do paramedics live longer/healthier than others? Or do they order a pint of Guinness after a funeral and they are normal?
              Last edited by LH-B744; 2015-04-25, 01:10. Reason: He wants to second that.
              The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
              The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
              And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
              This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MCM View Post
                Always going to be a few try it on. This is one who slipped through the net, but I'll bet there are others who have tried.

                Good on Lufthansa and others for making a streamlined process - I hope they continue to do so, and recover costs from those taking the mickey afterwards, rather than make life harder for those genuinely involved.

                I wish it were possible to say that it is human nature to be good and respectful, but I think there's enough ratbags out there to show that its not outlier behaviour .
                To continue with my last post here in this topic, pilots don't know that much of a SAR background. Imho, this is why there is always a pilot
                + one doctor
                in a SAR helicopter.

                But, as you, I don't know if a doctor on board 4U 9525 could've helped to avoid this catastrophe. Six Germanwings crew members on board, but five of them were not involved in the illness of the copilot.
                So, how could a doctor have helped, if there were any amongst the 144 passengers?

                After one month, still more questions than answers.

                PS: If you go on board an aircraft which is operated under the USA flag, there ALWAYS seems to be a second person in the cockpit. But I don't know if this second person has to be a doctor or a psychologist or a paramedic.
                Still more questions... + 1 more.
                I don't know if there are enough psychologists in Germany to provide a weekly talk of at least 15 minutes,
                for approx 4,000 pilots, only in the LH group. 15 x 4000 = 60000 minutes a week.

                A rhetorical question: Which psychologist works 1000 hours in one week?

                And after all, I have to agree with you. "This is one" -- one who had a very bad breakfast, on a day when his psychologist had no time for him...

                "Auffällig unauffällig (dh wortkarg)" is a German saying. I like to translate it with
                "laconic"*.
                Correct me if you think different, Seahawk.

                *afaik, laconic was also the word which was used by the leading French state attorney, Mr Brice Robin, who investigated the 4U CVR.
                Last edited by LH-B744; 2015-04-25, 02:27. Reason: +The US solution. + 1 calculation.
                The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                  To continue with my last post here in this topic, pilots don't know that much of a SAR background. Imho, this is why there is always a pilot
                  + one doctor
                  in a SAR helicopter.

                  But, as you, I don't know if a doctor on board 4U 9525 could've helped to avoid this catastrophe. Six Germanwings crew members on board, but five of them were not involved in the illness of the copilot.
                  So, how could a doctor have helped, if there were any amongst the 144 passengers?

                  After one month, still more questions than answers.

                  PS: If you go on board an aircraft which is operated under the USA flag, there ALWAYS seems to be a second person in the cockpit. But I don't know if this second person has to be a doctor or a psychologist or a paramedic.
                  Still more questions... + 1 more.
                  I don't know if there are enough psychologists in Germany to provide a weekly talk of at least 15 minutes,
                  for approx 4,000 pilots, only in the LH group. 15 x 4000 = 60000 minutes a week.

                  A rhetorical question: Which psychologist works 1000 hours in one week?

                  And after all, I have to agree with you. "This is one" -- one who had a very bad breakfast, on a day when his psychologist had no time for him...

                  "Auffällig unauffällig (dh wortkarg)" is a German saying. I like to translate it with
                  "laconic"*.
                  Correct me if you think different, Seahawk.

                  *afaik, laconic was also the word which was used by the leading French state attorney, Mr Brice Robin, who investigated the 4U CVR.
                  MCM was talking about the woman in the article posted above who posed as one of the relatives of the passengers on the flight in order to get free flights on Lufthansa. Not the copilot.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                    To continue with my last post here in this topic, pilots don't know that much of a SAR background. Imho, this is why there is always a pilot
                    + one doctor
                    in a SAR helicopter.

                    But, as you, I don't know if a doctor on board 4U 9525 could've helped to avoid this catastrophe. Six Germanwings crew members on board, but five of them were not involved in the illness of the copilot.
                    So, how could a doctor have helped, if there were any amongst the 144 passengers?

                    After one month, still more questions than answers.

                    PS: If you go on board an aircraft which is operated under the USA flag, there ALWAYS seems to be a second person in the cockpit. But I don't know if this second person has to be a doctor or a psychologist or a paramedic.
                    Still more questions... + 1 more.
                    I don't know if there are enough psychologists in Germany to provide a weekly talk of at least 15 minutes,
                    for approx 4,000 pilots, only in the LH group. 15 x 4000 = 60000 minutes a week.

                    A rhetorical question: Which psychologist works 1000 hours in one week?

                    And after all, I have to agree with you. "This is one" -- one who had a very bad breakfast, on a day when his psychologist had no time for him...

                    "Auffällig unauffällig (dh wortkarg)" is a German saying. I like to translate it with
                    "laconic"*.
                    Correct me if you think different, Seahawk.

                    *afaik, laconic was also the word which was used by the leading French state attorney, Mr Brice Robin, who investigated the 4U CVR.
                    MCM was talking about the woman in the article posted above who posed as one of the relatives of the passengers on the flight in order to get free flights on Lufthansa. Not the copilot.

                    Comment


                    • This accident has just caused one more death: Germanwings.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        This accident has just caused one more death: Germanwings.
                        Well - not so. Merging Germanwings into Lufthansa's new low-cost subsidiary Eurowings has been planned for quite a while. Lufthansa published the new concept last year, well before the accident.

                        Comment


                        • Bild today 'reported' that Lubitz might have '"rehearsed" his actions on the previous flight:
                          Quoting sources close to the French investigating authorities, the newspaper said that the co-pilot, 27-year-old Andreas Lubitz, appeared to have tried out a "controlled, minute-long descent for which there was no aeronautical reason" on the earlier outbound flight from Düsseldorf to Barcelona.

                          There aren't any more details than that but unless he was also alone in the cockpit I can't imagine this action being overlooked by his captain, nor ATC, so this must have been an authorized flight level change or part of the normal descent. Also, there is no reason for a certified pilot to need to rehearse such a simple autopilot action. Lastly, I highly doubt it was a high rate of descent.

                          Bild says they are quoting the French investigation findings from the FDR. I can only imagine they are misquoting the investigation.

                          Comment


                          • I saw that in the news and almost fell over laughing.

                            I guess they don't understand that pilots perform controlled descents all the time... it's called "landing". Or descending toward a landing, or changing altitude to avoid traffic, or 50 other things...
                            Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                            Eric Law

                            Comment


                            • The BBC article elaborated a bit more:
                              The interim French investigation report explains that puzzle. Over the course of three or four minutes, Lubitz did indeed designate "100 feet" as the selected flight level. He did this several times, while the pilot was out of the cockpit.
                              But this was just after the plane had already begun its descent. After each occasion that he chose "100 feet" he then corrected himself and entered the correct flight level. The course of the plane was not altered at all.
                              The picture that builds up is of a man steeling himself for the challenge he has set himself, building up the courage but at each point pulling back - until finally the pilot re-enters the cockpit and normality returns.

                              Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32604552

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by sjwk View Post
                                The BBC article elaborated a bit more:
                                Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32604552
                                Aha!! I don't think this was 'reheasal'. I wonder how many flights before he had been doing this. Probably whenever left alone in the cockpit. I think it's a compulsion, somewhat like tourettes, to push into the realm of death. And the last time he didn't pull back.

                                I would like to see the corresponding engine readouts. I wonder whether this should have been noticeable to the captain while he was outside the cockpit. The flight path remains fairly even due to the energy at idle thrust, but would returning the selection to the proper one after a full minute result in thrust increase or just pitch increase? At any rate, you can hardly expect a captain to become suspicious of a homicidal F/O.

                                Does the transponder send out the selected flight level?

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