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  • Originally posted by Jpmkam View Post
    Judges halt seabed recovery of bodies from Air France jet
    cool, dispassionate heads prevail. maybe the french aren't so bad after all...nah

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jpmkam View Post
      Black boxes analysis information.
      am i missing something here? someone posted a while back that the fdr and cvr were designed to withstand pressure at 20,000 feet. there was also discussion regarding some other recorder(s) that were recovered from great depth and did not fail/leak. (i think).

      so why all this talk about a likelihood about them having failed, leaked etc?

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      • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
        am i missing something here? someone posted a while back that the fdr and cvr were designed to withstand pressure at 20,000 feet.
        Indeed - but not indefinitely. It has been two years now, that's a long time for the pressure to work!

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        • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          am i missing something here? someone posted a while back that the fdr and cvr were designed to withstand pressure at 20,000 feet. there was also discussion regarding some other recorder(s) that were recovered from great depth and did not fail/leak. (i think).

          so why all this talk about a likelihood about them having failed, leaked etc?
          Hi TeeVee
          I think it may be a cover yer ass (CYA) statement....
          I dont think this type of device has been tested at that depth for so long, the actual certification test is for a certain amount of time (very short!)
          I am sure they would know NOW if they had leaked, as for a leak to occur, there must have been a pressure differencial. The units are dry filled not wet filled, so unless the dry filling emulated a solid form, ie non compessible - then the material inside must have had some form of closed cell structure containing atmospheric pressure.. then, yes, in the event of a leak, water would be forced in and the packing compressed - now, on raising the cylinder, presuming a slow long time leak, the pressure inside the unit would now be far higher at the surface and there would be minute evidence of leaks from the inside out.. They could have placed the unit in completely sterile de-ionised liquid for example, then measure salinity PPM. that would be one way of knowing.
          Even if they HAVE leaked, which I doubt but hey, then as said before, it is quite possible to recover the data as the corrosive effects of any leak are unlikely to be much due to lack of O2 and temp, the biggest danger is from the time the units are raised to the time they are opened and cleaned. Personally I think this should have been done immediately with a specialised team on board the recovery ship, but that is just my humble opinion. Even with issues with leaks, then the recovery of the data just takes longer, but is perfectly possible due to the memory chips in use.
          The FDR had the pinger ripped out of it's mounting, the CVR didn't, how much this would influence things ? I don't know.
          I think they are just hedging their bets until the units are opened.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jpmkam View Post
            But the two bodies disintegrated while being raised through warmer water and stronger currents to the surface.

            How distressing for the families to have to read this stuff in the media. I don't care if it is a fact. That's somebody's loved one that is being spoken of and the mental image is awful for me, much less one of the family members. Terrible. They certainly could have phrased it differently or something.
            Don Henley was RIGHT!

            I guess this also means that they will be leaving a lot of fuselage on the seabed and won't be proceeding with the full recovery they started with. It's just as well. I think the boxes and the wreckage they recovered from the surface tell the tale. I guess they will want the pitots and then they should depart.
            I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

            Comment


            • This is the latest gem from CNN:

              The plane belly-flopped into the water while en route from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to Paris, falling so fast that air masks did not have time to deploy.
              What exactly are the qualifications to be a journalist these days? A high school diploma?

              Comment


              • a heart beat...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Myndee View Post
                  How distressing for the families to have to read this stuff in the media. I don't care if it is a fact. That's somebody's loved one that is being spoken of and the mental image is awful for me, much less one of the family members. Terrible. They certainly could have phrased it differently or something.
                  Don Henley was RIGHT!

                  I guess this also means that they will be leaving a lot of fuselage on the seabed and won't be proceeding with the full recovery they started with. It's just as well. I think the boxes and the wreckage they recovered from the surface tell the tale. I guess they will want the pitots and then they should depart.
                  this is kinda what i was saying a few days back, but some people thought i was wrong and should let them pull bodies from their final resting place just to placate selfish and self-centered family members.

                  here "mr and mrs smith, we had to wrap the boday in this here special netting to avoid loosing it on ascent. it's um, uh, kinda just a soup right now so don't go opening the netting."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    this is kinda what i was saying a few days back, but some people thought i was wrong and should let them pull bodies from their final resting place just to placate selfish and self-centered family members.

                    here "mr and mrs smith, we had to wrap the boday in this here special netting to avoid loosing it on ascent. it's um, uh, kinda just a soup right now so don't go opening the netting."
                    A dead body isn't a pleasant thing under the best of circumstances, let alone when someone dies in an accident. I don't see how this impacts the respect we should have for a family's wishes as to how the remains are treated. The fact is, about half the families wanted the bodies left undisturbed, and the rest, including the Americans' family, wanted them retrieved. How is this selfish? It is something that they felt would comfort them, having the body brought home. I really don't see there being a right and a wrong here, just two different perspectives. When a soldier is killed overseas, do we tell the family that the body was all in nasty little bits, so we decided to leave it where it was? No, as with a bad accident, we enclose the remains and treat them with dignity. As I said previously, I'm not sure how I would feel under similar circumstances, but now that the process of retrieving bodies has turned out to be even more disturbing than anticipated, authorities made a decision that probably makes sense.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                      What exactly are the qualifications to be a journalist these days? A high school diploma?
                      Funny how when it suits our purposes to decry someone's knowledge of aviation we question their paper qualifications...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
                        Funny how when it suits our purposes to decry someone's knowledge of aviation we question their paper qualifications...
                        Aaactually, I was decrying a person's knowledge of journalism, not aviation. A journalist doesn't need to have knowledge of aviation. A journalist needs to know how to get accurate information from a reliable source and then fact-check it before publishing nonsense on a major news channel. All that is taught in journalism schools, which provide professional journalists with their paper 'qualifications'.

                        Sorry if that confused you.

                        Comment


                        • "The airport was not tower controlled"

                          "They failed to file a flight plan"

                          I rest Evan's case.
                          Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

                          Comment


                          • The plane belly-flopped into the water while en route from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to Paris, falling so fast that air masks did not have time to deploy.
                            OMG. How about:

                            "The OXIGEN masks did not deploy because the plane never lost cabin pressure, so they were not supposed to deploy to begin with", or better don't even mention the masks at all because they have nothing to do here.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
                              A dead body isn't a pleasant thing under the best of circumstances, let alone when someone dies in an accident. I don't see how this impacts the respect we should have for a family's wishes as to how the remains are treated. The fact is, about half the families wanted the bodies left undisturbed, and the rest, including the Americans' family, wanted them retrieved. How is this selfish? It is something that they felt would comfort them, having the body brought home. I really don't see there being a right and a wrong here, just two different perspectives. When a soldier is killed overseas, do we tell the family that the body was all in nasty little bits, so we decided to leave it where it was? No, as with a bad accident, we enclose the remains and treat them with dignity. As I said previously, I'm not sure how I would feel under similar circumstances, but now that the process of retrieving bodies has turned out to be even more disturbing than anticipated, authorities made a decision that probably makes sense.
                              Soldiers coming home dead or alive is very much an american thing based on pride that "we leave no man behind." believe me, there are plenty of americans all over the world whose remains remained where they died and were not brought home. hmmm doesn't france have some huge american cemetery???

                              the point is, seeing the dead and bringing them home is solely a selfish act. it does not serve the dead. they don't care. it serves only the living who are trying to find some comfort by holding on to the physical remains of what used to be the person's body. the actual person--personality, emotions etc.--ceased to exist as we know it when the person died.

                              i spent 14 years as a paramedic in NYC and carried more than my fair share of dead people. i retrieved body parts from the ocean, rivers, subway tunnels, sidewalks, elevator shafts... in those cases, where the bodies were in plain site and had not been buried for two years at 13,000+ feet, yeas, it made sense to retrieve them and allow for autopsies, burials etc. i respected the dead then and still do today. i have little respect for survivors who place their "need" to connect to the departed by seeing the remains.

                              i highly doubt the officials in this case had intention on doing autopsies, since the cause of death of every soul aboard is no secret.

                              and on that note, i'll stop the thread hijack...

                              Comment


                              • I follow Scientific American on Google. Hence I found this article:
                                Scientific American is the essential guide to the most awe-inspiring advances in science and technology, explaining how they change our understanding of the world and shape our lives.


                                Read like a summary of the arguments here with all the controversy winnowed out. Wonder if they will find out, as the author suggested, that conditions prevented the pilots from knowing they were stalled till they were past the point of successfully applying the known procedures. Did those few messages that were radioed out indicate the pilots should have known?

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