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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Originally posted by pacoperez View Post
    Is really the suicide the only scenario that fits here? Is it unlikely that that person suffered some kind of attack that paralysed him but not killed him? (Because they could hear a breath all the time, isn't it?). I don't know, an aneurysm? An ictus?.....
    How'd the door get locked in such a manner as to keep out the captain? Anything's possible but probable is a held to a higher degree of likelihood

    Arrow

    Comment


    • Look at the graphic mfeldt posted. Flipping the switch to "lock" disables all methods of access (for a period of time).

      But I do find it odd that they've (IMHO) jumped to the conclusion that the act was deliberate simply because breathing noises were recorded in the cockpit. Breathing and conscious are two different things. And yes, while someone would have to have moved the door switch to the "lock" position, it seems within the realm of possibility that a person confused due to hypoxia could move the switch in the wrong direction while intending to unlock the door.
      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

      Eric Law

      Comment


      • Again, considering that all the information we have is preliminary and therefore subject to changes overtime as investigation continues. Any misleading information could lead anyone to jump into wrong conclusions.
        Any medical condition such as aneurism or heart attack would alter the breathing patterns (rate, amplitude, additional breathing sounds, etc). The same for any psychological conditions (“freezing” attitude, suicidal moment, etc).
        I suppose the cockpit microphones are very sensitive and could give some clue about that breathing pattern.
        It is extremely surprising the words of the French Prosecutor: “Co-pilot begun descent intentionally. Co-pilot wanted to destroy the plane” (quoted from Associated Press). If these are correct and specific words, it is quite incisive.
        Questions:
        • What about the alarms? When they started? Which ones?
        • Could a “low experienced” (600+ hours FC member) lock the door accidentally in the “lock mode” and not noticed?
        Waiting for the investigational report

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Arrow View Post
          If the recording was clear, a preliminary response that will be essentially faithful to the final report isn't difficult.


          Calm? That's a relative term. "In control" might be more accurate. As to conscious, had there been a hull breach that dropped air pressure, there would've been the requisite alarms picked up on the CVR. That there's no mention precludes that as a likely possibility. If you're suggesting he had a seizure, fatal heart attack, etc., how did the flight deck door come to be dead-bolted? Pretty unlikely.

          I'm not thinking along a hull breach, more something like this
          Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

          both flight crew became partially incapacitated within seconds following a strong burning electrical smell
          Just imagine - you're captain is on the loo, a strong electrical smell and seconds later you start feeling dizzy - what do you do? Try to initiate a landing maybe?

          And next - you're already half asleep, you hear the longed-for signal of the door - and - if those videos on youtube are correct - simply flick the switch in the wrong direction. Door locked, you become unconscious - end of story. I don't think that's too far fetched.

          Probably something in particular said (not to mention which cockpit mic had the strongest pick-up) would help make that an easy enough determination. If you're suggesting that the flight crew conspired between them to admit a third person to the flight deck in order to crash the plane, isn't that making things needlessly difficult?
          Acknowledged

          Occam's Razor. The 9/11 conspiracy world is full of Rube Goldbergish explanations to attempt to account for inconvenient truths.

          Arrow
          I'm not advocating conspiracy theories, but that's a pretty hefty accusation burdened on someone who just died. And given the shortness of time that has passed since the recording became available, I don't think anyone can "rule out all reasonable doubt"!
          Last edited by mfeldt; 2015-03-26, 13:52. Reason: typos

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pacoperez View Post
            Is really the suicide the only scenario that fits here? Is it unlikely that that person suffered some kind of attack that paralysed him but not killed him? (Because they could hear a breath all the time, isn't it?). I don't know, an aneurysm? An ictus?.....
            Then why would he flip the door to LOCK ?
            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

            Comment


            • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
              Then why would he flip the door to LOCK ?
              Because it's a simple mistake to do - look at the switch above!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                ...........................
                Does "breathing until impact" really mean he was conscious and calm?
                ..............................
                I suspect that the body of the co-pilot (and pilot) will be in such a condition that an autopsy to determine any physical illness (stroke, heart attack) will be impossible.

                Comment


                • One assumes being at the sharp end of a high speed impact - even if they find the bits any type of helpful post mortem is unlikely. So his breathing pattern is all they have really on his physical state at the time.

                  Does the recording include a feed from his comms mike or just a remote cockpit mike?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                    I'm not thinking along a hull breach, more something like this
                    Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation


                    Just imagine - you're captain is on the loo, a strong electrical smell and seconds later you start feeling dizzy - what do you do? Try to initiate a landing maybe?
                    Not being a pilot myself, I would be reaching for the air mask first and then start worrying about other things. But that's just me in my parlour-talking way. Maybe a seasoned professional would do what you suggested first

                    Oh, and I think the word "partial" might be relevant here too.

                    Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                    And next - you're already half asleep, you hear the longed-for signal of the door - and - if those videos on youtube are correct - simply flick the switch in the wrong direction. Door locked, you become unconscious - end of story. I don't think that's too far fetched.
                    Sorry but who's the FO? Benjy? Lassie? Faithfully waiting through all kinds of terrible conditions for Master to come to the rescue? And why on Earth would the FO be reaching for the lock when the normal lock setting would allow captain access?

                    Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                    I'm not advocating conspiracy theories,
                    You're JAQing-off (Just Asking Questions) in a manner rather reminiscent of conspiracy theorist fashion

                    Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                    but that's a pretty hefty accusation burdened on someone who just died.
                    Only if there's something reasonable you're proposing as an alternative based on information available. I think it'd be reasonably safe to assert that nobody'd be making public announcements of the kind that was made this morning if they weren't quite sure that their pronouncements would be borne-out. Modern litigiousness has ensured that necessity.

                    Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                    And given the shortness of time that has passed since the recording became available, I don't think anyone can "rule out all reasonable doubt"!
                    Operative word? "Reasonable". I've yet to see anything from you that would cleave closer to the edge of Occam's Razor than suicide by pilot.

                    Arrow

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                      Then why would he flip the door to LOCK ?
                      The event when that switch is moved to LOCK is also recorded, right? It would interesting to know when it was locked actually

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pierpp View Post
                        Very interesting and leads to my assumption this is a deliberate act of pilot suicide
                        Just please don't call it "suicide". 150 persons died. 149 if them were murdered (IF this hypothesis happens to be true).

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pacoperez View Post
                          The event when that switch is moved to LOCK is also recorded, right? It would interesting to know when it was locked actually
                          Probably not on the CVR. You'd certainly need the FDR, which some people already suggest to stop looking for because everything is crystal clear...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                            Because it's a simple mistake to do - look at the switch above!
                            How about explaining why he's reaching back to the lock instead of donning oxygen? You're clinging onto some pretty unlikely and counterintuitive notions

                            Arrow

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Arrow View Post
                              Not being a pilot myself, I would be reaching for the air mask first and then start worrying about other things. But that's just me in my parlour-talking way. Maybe a seasoned professional would do what you suggested first

                              Oh, and I think the word "partial" might be relevant here too.
                              As are the "seconds"... That Accident in 2010 was not something to be taken light-heartedly, it was actually near-crash:
                              The German BFU released their preliminary report in German stating, that both flight crew became partially incapacitated within seconds following a strong burning electrical smell on base leg and during intercept of the localizer. The captain's oxygen level in his blood fell substantially below 80%, the first officer's oxygen level below 80% (normal value 95-98%). The first officer was in sick leave for 6 months following the event.


                              While the aircraft turned to intercept the localizer the first officer reported he felt seriously sick close to vomiting (German "kotzübel"), he smelled a strong electrical sweet odour and would don his oxygen mask. Alerted by that remark the captain noticed his legs and arms were tickling, his senses were literally vanishing and his sight abruptly reduced to a tunnel view. He too donned his oxygen mask. The first officer needed two attempts to don his oxygen masks. After both flight crew had donned their oxygen masks, the captain improved slightly, while the first officer's condition continued to deteriorate.


                              The captain (35, ATPL, 7,864 hours total, 3,107 on type) instructed the first officer (26, CPL, 720 hours total, 472 hours on type) to advise approach they would immediately contact tower and to declare Mayday on tower. While the first officer was communicating with tower declaring emergency and reporting strong smell in the cockpit the tower instructed an aircraft ahead of the A319 to go around, the aircraft established on the glide path, the captain, pilot flying, selected flaps 1 himself and disengaged the autopilot now flying manually. The aircraft was flying too fast (around 220 KIAS), the captain therefore deployed spoilers, instructed the first officer therefore to lower the gear and later to select flaps 2.

                              At that point the first officer felt overwhelmed, he could no longer overview the scenario, could no longer process the arriving information and had difficulty to focus on single aspects of the scenario. The captain felt that while manually flying the aircraft he was at the upper limit of what he was capable to do in his bad bodily shape.

                              Apparently oxygen first is indeed what to do, but also apparently it does not always help!


                              Sorry but who's the FO? Benjy? Lassie? Faithfully waiting through all kinds of terrible conditions for Master to come to the rescue? And why on Earth would the FO be reaching for the lock when the normal lock setting would allow captain access?
                              Well, I'm not a professional, I just watched this supposedly instructive video of Airbus. The normal procedure to get in is to give a call, and the one inside has to use this particular switch. Only when there is no response, you dial a code on the keypad and the door opens after some delay. Unless that switch has been set to "lock" in advance...

                              And I'm not assuming any Lassie, just someone confused by e.g. a chemical.



                              You're JAQing-off (Just Asking Questions) in a manner rather reminiscent of conspiracy theorist fashion
                              Nonsense. I am proposing an alternative scenario that's hard to rule out given the available information. And indeed I do not think it's safe to ascert that this prosecutor from Marseille wouldn't sprint ahead if given the opportunity.

                              I do not even know why the prosecutor is disseminating information that the BEA has not released yet.

                              Operative word? "Reasonable". I've yet to see anything from you that would cleave closer to the edge of Occam's Razor than suicide by pilot.

                              Arrow
                              Sorry, but I do not see that at all. Moreover, I'm sure there's more alternative explanations than the suicide and the scenario I propose.

                              Comment


                              • There are, understandably, a lot of posts grasping at alternatives to murdercide. Nobody wants to accept that reality. But the facts we know are:

                                - The descent had to be intentionally initiated.
                                - No action was taken to arrest the descent.
                                - There are no reports of alarms or warnings on the CVR, thus no rapid or slow-onset decompression, no AP disconnect, no master caution, etc.
                                - The door lock switch must have been manually selected to the LOCK position.
                                - The F/O was breathing 'normally' throughout the descent.
                                - The CPT was loudly requesting entrance with no reply.
                                - ATC was requesting comms with no reply.
                                - The investigators have gone over the ACARS data.

                                So, form your theories with ALL this in mind please.

                                Comment

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