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Pilots need to use the autopilot/FMS more!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Let's say you realize your error while touching down, before the reversers. You have no way of knowing the remaining field length but you know it isn't anywhere near AFM. You need 5-8 seconds for spool-up to GA thrust, correct? You also realize you have no clearance in the airspace. Do you risk a go around at that point or is it wiser to hit the brakes and pray? I suppose there is no correct or easy answer to that question...
    I think the answer is yes. It doesn't take a lot of runway to GA just after touchdown (before reversers are selected). If there is no room for a GA then you'r going to run off the end at high speed. You don't need to wait until the engines are at 100% to rotate (in fact, if you didn't select reversers yet chances are that the nose is still high). Remember that a airliner can safely climb out on 50% of the installed thrust.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #32
      Evan - I go around.

      Reversers are selected within a couple of seconds of touchdown, so you haven't used much runway or lost much speed. The thrust will very quickly have you powering away from the ground with plenty of the even ridiculously short runway in front of you. You still have momentum and will fly away without any issues.

      There's always room for the go around is the short answer.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
        Oh this is fun, and I haven't even posted on the thread!
        Join the fun.

        This is right up your alley- responsibilities of the pilots versus discussions as to why the electronics allowed this- including a previous system that occasionally interrupted those critical ATC calls. Oh the ironing!

        Or are we covering it all reasonaby well- along with plenty of nifty & naieve layman suggestions as to how you should do your job better?
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by MCM View Post
          Evan - I go around.

          Reversers are selected within a couple of seconds of touchdown, so you haven't used much runway or lost much speed. The thrust will very quickly have you powering away from the ground with plenty of the even ridiculously short runway in front of you. You still have momentum and will fly away without any issues.

          There's always room for the go around is the short answer.
          Aren't there a number of landmark incidents (predominately CRM failures) where go-stop-go-stop resulted in bent planes?

          And becuase of that there's a pretty hard rule that when reversers are selected you stop period?
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post

            And becuase of that there's a pretty hard rule that when reversers are selected you stop period?
            I think this is because once the reversers are deployed there is a chance they will not restow properly.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              I think this is because once the reversers are deployed there is a chance they will not restow properly.
              ...ala that 737 crash in canada many years ago

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              • #37
                Originally posted by MCM View Post
                Obmot,

                The system does exist, although it requires the latest generation of EGPWS computer, which most aircraft do not have.

                It also requires the operator to have it installed.

                Early incarnations of the system, while good, left a little to be desired. Unfortunately while it was a great theory, the system would often announce something just at the wrong time, and manage to block an ATC transmission or another call. They weren't just a passive system that would only tell you when you stuffed up, they also gave you other information. For example, taxiing around an airport it would announce "APPROACHING RUNWAY XX", which was for situational awareness. It also said things like "Wrong Runway".

                ....
                Thanks MCM, that was a very helpful response.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  Join the fun.

                  This is right up your alley- responsibilities of the pilots versus discussions as to why the electronics allowed this- including a previous system that occasionally interrupted those critical ATC calls. Oh the ironing!

                  Or are we covering it all reasonably well- along with plenty of nifty & naive layman suggestions as to how you should do your job better?
                  I concur with MCM 110%!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    as for capitals, i guess e.e. cummings was an idiot as well, since he never used 'em.
                    I would hope that if one would attempt to emulate e. e. cummings, he wouldn't start with avoidance of capitals.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MCM
                      ...go around...
                      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      Concur
                      Fixed
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                        I would hope that if one would attempt to emulate e. e. cummings, he wouldn't start with avoidance of capitals.
                        i'm not "emulating" anyone. i'm an attorney. i type all day long. i have little patience for worrying about capitalization when posting here or other fora where i take part in discussions.

                        seriously! is it so offensive to ignore a few stupid rules of grammar?

                        clearly vnav had little of merit to say regarding the substance of my earlier post, so he attacked my typing. yeah, that adds tons of credence to his position.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                          i'm not "emulating" anyone. i'm an attorney. i type all day long. i have little patience for worrying about capitalization when posting here or other fora where i take part in discussions.

                          seriously! is it so offensive to ignore a few stupid rules of grammar?

                          clearly vnav had little of merit to say regarding the substance of my earlier post, so he attacked my typing. yeah, that adds tons of credence to his position.
                          Nice diversion.

                          Please continue to sidestep the fact that you are not perfect and may be out of line in calling the pilots turds.

                          I don't know, but I'd bet you have f'd up a time or two in your driving, or walking, or maybe even your professional life.

                          That's the point and the beautiful thing is that you actually know what the point is, but attempt to play it off with more ad hominum stuff yourself.

                          I guess this board is a rehersal ground for the distress lawsuits you will taking on, and pocketing a nice chunk of change?
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                            Nice diversion.

                            Please continue to sidestep the fact that you are not perfect and may be out of line in calling the pilots turds.

                            I don't know, but I'd bet you have f'd up a time or two in your driving, or walking, or maybe even your professional life.

                            That's the point and the beautiful thing is that you actually know what the point is, but attempt to play it off with more ad hominum stuff yourself.

                            I guess this board is a rehersal ground for the distress lawsuits you will taking on, and pocketing a nice chunk of change?
                            last point first: i don't do personal injury suits, emotional distress sits etc, etc. so no, i won't be pocketing any change from this or any other similar event.

                            sure i f up all the time. thing is, i own up to it. i don't hide behind some wall of silence or make sorry ass excuses like many.

                            these guys f'd up. they got away VERY lucky that no one died. stop coddling them and making excuses, or rationalizing how it is POSSIBLE to mistake one airport for another when God, Boeing, the US DOD, and who knows how many others, put the technology to avoid this very mistake at your fingertips.

                            show me one time where the technology screwed up and fooled the humans into landing at the wrong and potentially very dangerous airport.

                            p.s. not directed at you, 3we...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                              these guys f'd up. they got away VERY lucky that no one died.
                              Let me divert from the core of the discussion a bit.
                              Does the bolded part make any difference when judging severity of the pilots' acts and mistakes?

                              I mean, I know that in criminal law the consequence of one's act affects the severity of the punishment: You aim and shot at somebody's head with all the intention of killing that person, and the crime is not the same if, just by chance, you miss, you slightly hurt the person, you seriously hurt the person or you kill the person. I really don't like it because we are judging random chance and not the act and intention itself, but I understand that justice has a component of revenge and if somebody kills my son I will want that person much more dead than if he fails and just scratches him (I'd want him/her dead to, but not as badly).

                              But analyzing it with a systemic approach: Imagine two parallel universes that are nearly identical. So you have two set of identical crews, that are equally professional, conscious, motivated, awake and well (or bad) trained flying two identical planes an making identical mistakes along the way. Both miss identical airports that are their intended destination and wrongly land at another airport that are identical one to the other and identically located, the runway is too short in both of them, the only difference in one of them there is a cliff at the end of the runway while in the other one there is just flat, smooth, solid dirt. In one case everybody dies and in the other case the plane is towed to the gate where everybody disembark normally and the only maintenance needed is to brush the dirt.

                              Another difference (consequence of the above) is that one of them is aired in all the TV stations and discussed in all the internet forum while the other one is only posted at AvHerald.

                              Is one crew more "turd" than the other? Is the mistake itself worse in one case than the other? Somehow I tend to think that you would not be so hard with the crew that, just by chance, had the better outcome.

                              As a side note (or maybe not so "side"), almost daily you'll find in AvHerald cases of planes that overrun the runway, even when the crew landed in the CORRECT airport and runway.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                ...the only difference in one of them there is a cliff at the end of the runway while in the other one there is just flat, smooth, solid dirt.
                                Or... the only difference is that one crew makes a textbook landing at the wrong airport and everyone lives while the other crew comes in a little fast or aims a little further down the runway and everyone goes to heaven. The irony here is that eveyone is alive probably because these pilots were very good pilots making a very bad error of judgment.

                                The other reason everyone is alive is that the runway was dry. That is of course beyond the pilots control so, yes, it did all come down to dumb luck in the end. Bad discipline, dumb luck, and good piloting.

                                The baffling thing to me is how they got it down on all three on a podunk airstrip and still didn't realize their mistake in time to go around.

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