Originally posted by TeeVee
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Pilots need to use the autopilot/FMS more!
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Originally posted by TeeVee View Posta quote from pprune: "With all of the navaids and fancy gear available to airliners in the developed world it takes a special breed of idiot to get it wrong nowadays.”
y'all can make all the excuses in the world for these turds. the bottom line is that they f'd up in a huge and unforgivable way. by the skin of their nutsacks they avoided a major catastrophe and likely loos of human lives, theirs probably included.
For what it's worth, I counted at least 6 small grammar mistakes in your 3 sentences....but I wouldn't worry about it, because there's no way a number of small errors could create a larger problem.Parlour Talker Extraordinaire
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At what point are you commited to landing? Obviously at some point these guys realized their mistake and slammed on the brakes. I'm wondering when that moment of realization was. In the air? Over the threshold? Essentially, when is that point of no return? Is a touch and go allowable or even possible in this scenario?
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Originally posted by Vnav View PostJust for my own edification, so that I don't risk being classified a 'turd' by an aviation safety expert such as yourself, could you detail all the navaids and fancy gear in use in the Branson area.
For what it's worth, I counted at least 6 small grammar mistakes in your 3 sentences....but I wouldn't worry about it, because there's no way a number of small errors could create a larger problem.
as for my grammatical errors, check your own post twice before throwing stones. questions are usually punctuated with a "?" not a "." unless of course your first sentence was a rhetorical question, which rightfully should still be punctuated by a "?"
as for the navaids available, again, you should read more carefully before slinging crap. the OP clearly stated "available to airliners." i think, but you correct me if i'm wrong, the word "airliners" refers to aircraft. maybe, just MAYBE, he meant, gps, moving maps etc etc.
as for the fields, Branson has ILS while the baby airport does not.
i dunno, you tell us.
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Originally posted by TeeVee View Postperhaps you missed the few words in my post that read, "a quote from pprune" maybe you should go search it and argue with the OP.
Let's take another look at your OP:
a quote from pprune: "With all of the navaids and fancy gear available to airliners in the developed world it takes a special breed of idiot to get it wrong nowadays.”
y'all can make all the excuses in the world for these turds. the bottom line is that they f'd up in a huge and unforgivable way. by the skin of their nutsacks they avoided a major catastrophe and likely loos of human lives, theirs probably included
Now I'll state at the outset that this is going to go down as Pilot Error, of that there's little doubt. However, it could be anything from 'they were intentionally high on drugs' to someone shined a laser in their eyes and they got lost. My guess is it's somewhere in between. But without even discussing anything, you've gone straight for the ever popular "These guys are turds and F'ed up".
I'm not one of these pilots who thinks you can't even discuss it until the report is out. I'm interested in what kind of approach might have been available and what are SWA pilots qualified for (the ILS was not for the runway they were supposed to be landing on). What was the level of Air Traffic Control they were receiving? What were the lighting conditions? What distractions might have been present?.....in good old CRM talk, what were the threats and errors involved?
My pointing out that you made a number of errors in your post had nothing to do with my infallibilty. I will gladly admit my errors (though you really need to discover the SHIFT key). My point is that people make errors all the time. Some are worse than others. Assuming they weren't intentional or criminal in nature, it doesn't necessarily make them turds. They may indeed turn out to be turds, but how 'bout you bring some actual discussion points to the table before reaching that conclusion.Parlour Talker Extraordinaire
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Worse than Tee Vee's hard-nosed lawyer theatrics is that CNN hired an "expert" flight instructor to go fly the route of the fateful trip.
They point out that both airports are visible at the same time with similar runways.
Of course, all you see on their report is some google earth stuff, the nose and wings of the light aircraft, lots of indistinguishable hills, and a flyby of the short airport, piano keys approaching on a genuine approach- and all daylight shots, not night.
Oh, and I forgot- some sort of flight sim of a Southwest plane (with a perfect livery) landing and stopping on the runway.
The expert instructor states that after landing, they have two choices, go around or stop, and that he really doesn't know how they were able to stop.
...and in other news, there was apparently a dispatcher in the cockpit. Not a violation of policy, but it sure makes you think "distraction".Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by Vnav View PostSo you were just posting random comments from other boards and not trying to make any editorial contentions with them? You take the time to copy something from another forum and then completely disown it? At least be a man and try to justify your position....don't post something and then claim you had no idea what it meant.
Let's take another look at your OP:
.
Now I'll state at the outset that this is going to go down as Pilot Error, of that there's little doubt. However, it could be anything from 'they were intentionally high on drugs' to someone shined a laser in their eyes and they got lost. My guess is it's somewhere in between. But without even discussing anything, you've gone straight for the ever popular "These guys are turds and F'ed up".
I'm not one of these pilots who thinks you can't even discuss it until the report is out. I'm interested in what kind of approach might have been available and what are SWA pilots qualified for (the ILS was not for the runway they were supposed to be landing on). What was the level of Air Traffic Control they were receiving? What were the lighting conditions? What distractions might have been present?.....in good old CRM talk, what were the threats and errors involved?
My pointing out that you made a number of errors in your post had nothing to do with my infallibilty. I will gladly admit my errors (though you really need to discover the SHIFT key). My point is that people make errors all the time. Some are worse than others. Assuming they weren't intentional or criminal in nature, it doesn't necessarily make them turds. They may indeed turn out to be turds, but how 'bout you bring some actual discussion points to the table before reaching that conclusion.
oh i do own the post even if it's a quote. i agree with it 100%, and then some.
besides quoting and AGREEING with another, my position is well supported by the FACTS not parlour talking conjecture.
1. FACT: their aircraft was equipped with GPS and a BIG FAT MAP
2. FACT: they failed to report any outside interference such as blinding laser beams
not sure how accurate flightaware's data is but give a looksee here https://flightaware.com/live/flight/...145Z/KMDW/KBBG and tell me if you think they weren't turds that f'd up.
the course diversion began, at least according to flightaware, a long ways off.
go ahead and fly visual all you want. with 2 supposed pros in the cockpit, at least one should've at least glanced at the fancy doodads to make sure they were headed in the right direction.
shouldn't RNAV have prevented this? or is it so unreliable as to lead one to an incorrect airstrip? or maybe, they didn't program it/use it?
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostThe expert instructor states that after landing, they have two choices, go around or stop, and that he really doesn't know how they were able to stop.
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Originally posted by MCM View PostEvan - "............they touched down and selected reverse thrust, and saw the end of the runway coming up a little quicker than they expected...
Still, they would have had time to scan the "Situations Vacant" ads while taxiing to the ramp !If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
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Originally posted by MCM View PostEvan - selection of reverse thrust is the moment you are committed. So the likelihood is that they realised after they touched down and selected reverse thrust, and saw the end of the runway coming up a little quicker than they expected...
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Originally posted by Evan View PostLet's say you realize your error while touching down, before the reversers. You have no way of knowing the remaining field length but you know it isn't anywhere near AFM. You need 5-8 seconds for spool-up to GA thrust, correct? You also realize you have no clearance in the airspace. Do you risk a go around at that point or is it wiser to hit the brakes and pray? I suppose there is no correct or easy answer to that question...
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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