Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pilots need to use the autopilot/FMS more!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
    a quote from pprune: "With all of the navaids and fancy gear available to airliners in the developed world it takes a special breed of idiot to get it wrong nowadays.”

    y'all can make all the excuses in the world for these turds. the bottom line is that they f'd up in a huge and unforgivable way. by the skin of their nutsacks they avoided a major catastrophe and likely loos of human lives, theirs probably included.
    Kinda harsh, but OTOH, I'm thinking their aviation career is now going to be more focused on baggage or managing the loading of the A, B and C groups.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
      a quote from pprune: "With all of the navaids and fancy gear available to airliners in the developed world it takes a special breed of idiot to get it wrong nowadays.”

      y'all can make all the excuses in the world for these turds. the bottom line is that they f'd up in a huge and unforgivable way. by the skin of their nutsacks they avoided a major catastrophe and likely loos of human lives, theirs probably included.
      Just for my own edification, so that I don't risk being classified a 'turd' by an aviation safety expert such as yourself, could you detail all the navaids and fancy gear in use in the Branson area.

      For what it's worth, I counted at least 6 small grammar mistakes in your 3 sentences....but I wouldn't worry about it, because there's no way a number of small errors could create a larger problem.
      Parlour Talker Extraordinaire

      Comment


      • #18
        At what point are you commited to landing? Obviously at some point these guys realized their mistake and slammed on the brakes. I'm wondering when that moment of realization was. In the air? Over the threshold? Essentially, when is that point of no return? Is a touch and go allowable or even possible in this scenario?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          The Mark IV FMS has an 'aviate' button that can over ride everything.
          Pushing this button also activates the snooze alarm.

          Comment


          • #20
            Evan - selection of reverse thrust is the moment you are committed. So the likelihood is that they realised after they touched down and selected reverse thrust, and saw the end of the runway coming up a little quicker than they expected...

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Vnav View Post
              Just for my own edification, so that I don't risk being classified a 'turd' by an aviation safety expert such as yourself, could you detail all the navaids and fancy gear in use in the Branson area.

              For what it's worth, I counted at least 6 small grammar mistakes in your 3 sentences....but I wouldn't worry about it, because there's no way a number of small errors could create a larger problem.
              perhaps you missed the few words in my post that read, "a quote from pprune" maybe you should go search it and argue with the OP.

              as for my grammatical errors, check your own post twice before throwing stones. questions are usually punctuated with a "?" not a "." unless of course your first sentence was a rhetorical question, which rightfully should still be punctuated by a "?"

              as for the navaids available, again, you should read more carefully before slinging crap. the OP clearly stated "available to airliners." i think, but you correct me if i'm wrong, the word "airliners" refers to aircraft. maybe, just MAYBE, he meant, gps, moving maps etc etc.

              as for the fields, Branson has ILS while the baby airport does not.

              i dunno, you tell us.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                perhaps you missed the few words in my post that read, "a quote from pprune" maybe you should go search it and argue with the OP.
                So you were just posting random comments from other boards and not trying to make any editorial contentions with them? You take the time to copy something from another forum and then completely disown it? At least be a man and try to justify your position....don't post something and then claim you had no idea what it meant.

                Let's take another look at your OP:

                a quote from pprune: "With all of the navaids and fancy gear available to airliners in the developed world it takes a special breed of idiot to get it wrong nowadays.”

                y'all can make all the excuses in the world for these turds. the bottom line is that they f'd up in a huge and unforgivable way. by the skin of their nutsacks they avoided a major catastrophe and likely loos of human lives, theirs probably included
                .


                Now I'll state at the outset that this is going to go down as Pilot Error, of that there's little doubt. However, it could be anything from 'they were intentionally high on drugs' to someone shined a laser in their eyes and they got lost. My guess is it's somewhere in between. But without even discussing anything, you've gone straight for the ever popular "These guys are turds and F'ed up".

                I'm not one of these pilots who thinks you can't even discuss it until the report is out. I'm interested in what kind of approach might have been available and what are SWA pilots qualified for (the ILS was not for the runway they were supposed to be landing on). What was the level of Air Traffic Control they were receiving? What were the lighting conditions? What distractions might have been present?.....in good old CRM talk, what were the threats and errors involved?

                My pointing out that you made a number of errors in your post had nothing to do with my infallibilty. I will gladly admit my errors (though you really need to discover the SHIFT key). My point is that people make errors all the time. Some are worse than others. Assuming they weren't intentional or criminal in nature, it doesn't necessarily make them turds. They may indeed turn out to be turds, but how 'bout you bring some actual discussion points to the table before reaching that conclusion.
                Parlour Talker Extraordinaire

                Comment


                • #23
                  Worse than Tee Vee's hard-nosed lawyer theatrics is that CNN hired an "expert" flight instructor to go fly the route of the fateful trip.

                  They point out that both airports are visible at the same time with similar runways.

                  Of course, all you see on their report is some google earth stuff, the nose and wings of the light aircraft, lots of indistinguishable hills, and a flyby of the short airport, piano keys approaching on a genuine approach- and all daylight shots, not night.

                  Oh, and I forgot- some sort of flight sim of a Southwest plane (with a perfect livery) landing and stopping on the runway.

                  The expert instructor states that after landing, they have two choices, go around or stop, and that he really doesn't know how they were able to stop.

                  ...and in other news, there was apparently a dispatcher in the cockpit. Not a violation of policy, but it sure makes you think "distraction".
                  Last edited by 3WE; 2014-01-15, 12:42. Reason: Just can't find an emoticon to do this all justice.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Vnav View Post
                    So you were just posting random comments from other boards and not trying to make any editorial contentions with them? You take the time to copy something from another forum and then completely disown it? At least be a man and try to justify your position....don't post something and then claim you had no idea what it meant.

                    Let's take another look at your OP:

                    .


                    Now I'll state at the outset that this is going to go down as Pilot Error, of that there's little doubt. However, it could be anything from 'they were intentionally high on drugs' to someone shined a laser in their eyes and they got lost. My guess is it's somewhere in between. But without even discussing anything, you've gone straight for the ever popular "These guys are turds and F'ed up".

                    I'm not one of these pilots who thinks you can't even discuss it until the report is out. I'm interested in what kind of approach might have been available and what are SWA pilots qualified for (the ILS was not for the runway they were supposed to be landing on). What was the level of Air Traffic Control they were receiving? What were the lighting conditions? What distractions might have been present?.....in good old CRM talk, what were the threats and errors involved?

                    My pointing out that you made a number of errors in your post had nothing to do with my infallibilty. I will gladly admit my errors (though you really need to discover the SHIFT key). My point is that people make errors all the time. Some are worse than others. Assuming they weren't intentional or criminal in nature, it doesn't necessarily make them turds. They may indeed turn out to be turds, but how 'bout you bring some actual discussion points to the table before reaching that conclusion.
                    first, let's get some of your obvious idiocy and ad hominem crap out of the way: if you wanna grade my drafting, language and grammar skills, come on down to Miami and i'll give you a few real life samples. if you really think people give a rats ass about typing errors and such on an internet forum, stick to your day job, in which i'm sure you are absolutely perfect. as for capitals, i guess e.e. cummings was an idiot as well, since he never used 'em. judge not others lest you be judged yourself.

                    oh i do own the post even if it's a quote. i agree with it 100%, and then some.

                    besides quoting and AGREEING with another, my position is well supported by the FACTS not parlour talking conjecture.

                    1. FACT: their aircraft was equipped with GPS and a BIG FAT MAP
                    2. FACT: they failed to report any outside interference such as blinding laser beams

                    not sure how accurate flightaware's data is but give a looksee here https://flightaware.com/live/flight/...145Z/KMDW/KBBG and tell me if you think they weren't turds that f'd up.

                    the course diversion began, at least according to flightaware, a long ways off.

                    go ahead and fly visual all you want. with 2 supposed pros in the cockpit, at least one should've at least glanced at the fancy doodads to make sure they were headed in the right direction.

                    shouldn't RNAV have prevented this? or is it so unreliable as to lead one to an incorrect airstrip? or maybe, they didn't program it/use it?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      The expert instructor states that after landing, they have two choices, go around or stop, and that he really doesn't know how they were able to stop.
                      I'm no expert, but I'm guessing brakes. If the surface was dry that runway is just long enough even without reveresers. But only if everything else is in your favor, which was damned lucky for them.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Oh this is fun, and I haven't even posted on the thread!

                        Myndee, I miss you!!!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by MCM View Post
                          Evan - "............they touched down and selected reverse thrust, and saw the end of the runway coming up a little quicker than they expected...
                          ...at which point the anal activity that I referred to in my post no doubt kicked in with accompanying high tech comments such as "Oh.....FUCK !!!"

                          Still, they would have had time to scan the "Situations Vacant" ads while taxiing to the ramp !
                          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            They can always go work as cartographers for Apple Maps...
                            Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                            Eric Law

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MCM View Post
                              Evan - selection of reverse thrust is the moment you are committed. So the likelihood is that they realised after they touched down and selected reverse thrust, and saw the end of the runway coming up a little quicker than they expected...
                              Let's say you realize your error while touching down, before the reversers. You have no way of knowing the remaining field length but you know it isn't anywhere near AFM. You need 5-8 seconds for spool-up to GA thrust, correct? You also realize you have no clearance in the airspace. Do you risk a go around at that point or is it wiser to hit the brakes and pray? I suppose there is no correct or easy answer to that question...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                Let's say you realize your error while touching down, before the reversers. You have no way of knowing the remaining field length but you know it isn't anywhere near AFM. You need 5-8 seconds for spool-up to GA thrust, correct? You also realize you have no clearance in the airspace. Do you risk a go around at that point or is it wiser to hit the brakes and pray? I suppose there is no correct or easy answer to that question...
                                I think the answer is yes. It doesn't take a lot of runway to GA just after touchdown (before reversers are selected). If there is no room for a GA then you'r going to run off the end at high speed. You don't need to wait until the engines are at 100% to rotate (in fact, if you didn't select reversers yet chances are that the nose is still high). Remember that a airliner can safely climb out on 50% of the installed thrust.

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X