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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    Evan, just for you available here... http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/bang-head-on-wall.gif

    Finally, something that makes sense. Brian, can we just change the title of this thread to this thing?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      The door has an access code and each crew member has its own "secret" PIN that falls under one of these categories: cabin crew PIN or flight crew PIN.

      When someone tries to access the cockpit with the access code, the pilots inside can deny the request.

      Access code + 1 cabin crew PIN + 1 flight crew PIN, the access cannot be denied.

      This is not a description of the current system, but an idea for the future one.
      Interesting idea!

      Let me add something: in that particular situation (two separate PINs being used), a distress call is automatically sent by the aircraft's systems.

      The problem I have with any scheme that allows undeniable access to the cockpit is when a bad guy with a weapon/bomb/etc. is standing there coercing the flight crew. With the automatic distress call added, the authorities will be notified that something is wrong. The crew can use their discretion as to whether they inform the hijacker of that...
      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

      Eric Law

      Comment


      • From what we're hearing the F/O "locked" the door. How they knew he bolted the door I'm not sure.

        But is it possible the guy had a stroke, cerebral hemorrhage, heart attack and in the process put nose down on stick?

        I realize that doesn't explain the Captain not being able to reenter the cockpit with his pin.

        Hopefully they can get data off the FDR to see what actually happened with the controls at least.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by UncleFire View Post
          From what we're hearing the F/O "locked" the door. How they knew he bolted the door I'm not sure.

          But is it possible the guy had a stroke, cerebral hemorrhage, heart attack and in the process put nose down on stick?

          I realize that doesn't explain the Captain not being able to reenter the cockpit with his pin.

          Hopefully they can get data off the FDR to see what actually happened with the controls at least.
          The descent was controlled... that suggests he used the altitude function of the autopilot. He did not manually crash the plane, not even unintentionally...
          I assume that the FDR readout will be a controlled descent of a fully functional aircraft as per autopilot input. Note that the aircraft also did not deviate from the flight-planned route...
          As for the door, there is a way to override the control-panel access on the outside.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
            But what causes the mental impairment but does not cause any aural warning in the cockpit? A decompressoin would cause an alarm. Then maybe it was smoke? So now your scenario is: The Captain leaves flight deck. Within a minute, smoke enters the cockpit, and the F/O selects the autopilot altitude to sealevel. The smoke then disorients the F/O, who in his last moments of semi-consciousness locks the cockpit door and then passes out. The captain can't get in, but the smoke does not continue into the cabin for another 8 minutes while the aircraft continues on its course and descent...

            Well - this is wayyyyyy more unlikely than the suicide scenario...
            Wayyyyy enough to throw around possibly premature accusations?

            As to "what causes..." - I gave the link to the 2010 accident already twice.
            In that case Germanwings claimed it was de-icing spray causing the odor that had the FO's blood oxygen level drop to 70%.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by UncleFire View Post
              But is it possible the guy had a stroke, cerebral hemorrhage, heart attack and in the process put nose down on stick?
              Yet remained on heading with a fairly controlled airspeed and an occillating vertical speed consistent with autopilot open descent?

              Besides, the autopilot never disconnected as it would if the sidestick were moved out of the neutral detent.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                He did not manually crash the plane, not even unintentionally...
                Interesting in itself in a suicide scenario...

                Comment


                • "The International Federal of Airline Pilots Associations, or IFALPA, condemned the leaks of the cockpit voice recorder or CVR on Thurdsay, saying that it violated long-established practices after plane crashes, where details are kept confidential until the investigation is complete. “Leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and general public and discourage cooperation with investigators in future accidents,” said a statement from the Montreal-based organization. “The sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators… not to apportion blame.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    As a containment, it should be immediately made mandatory what in some airlines is a policy: When a pilot goes out another crew member goes in. No person alone in the cockpit. Not a super-solution but something (consider the flight deck officer program in the US, where the pilot can carry a gun, not much a flight attendant can do if the pilot is serious about his intentions).
                    There you have it:

                    Some airlines say they will change rules to ensure two crew are always in cockpit after Airbus A320 pilot is locked out before crash


                    And looks like pilot murder suicide ended up being correct unfortunately. What a pointless tragedy...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                      "The International Federal of Airline Pilots Associations, or IFALPA, condemned the leaks of the cockpit voice recorder or CVR on Thurdsay, saying that it violated long-established practices after plane crashes, where details are kept confidential until the investigation is complete. “Leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and general public and discourage cooperation with investigators in future accidents,” said a statement from the Montreal-based organization. “The sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators… not to apportion blame.”
                      Nonsense. AFAIK no actual full or partial CVR transcript has been leaked. Announcements based on what the CVR contains have been released to the public to avoid ill-informed speculation. You avoid ill-informed speculation by informing people. Waiting for a full investigation before releasing that information would result in widespread ill-informed speculation. And the public has a right to know what threats exist as soon as they can be reasonably determined. The IFALPA statement smacks of control and concealment typical of a walled-off organization that abhors transparency.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                        According to tagesschau.de French authorities asked the GERMAN police to search the appartments of the first officer. Not the FBI...
                        Which I did *not* say!

                        French authorities asked FBI to join the investigation (w/o any further details given). For sure the house seeking in Germany would have been done by German police authorities! (though there might be US FBI forces permanently stationed in Germany which they might have invited to join ... (2x 'might' in one phrase!))

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by elaw View Post
                          As posted earlier, initiating a descent is the first thing pilots are trained to do in case of a loss of cabin pressure.

                          And without the FDR, there is no way to know for sure cabin pressure was not lost, unless there's something the authorities are not telling us. The "sound of someone breathing means cabin pressure was not lost" claim to me makes no sense. Watch some youtube videos of people in altitude chambers... when they lose consciousness, they don't stop breathing.

                          Or for a more realistic demo, fire up one of those videos and turn your monitor off. Then see if you can tell when the person becomes unconscious using just audio.
                          In hypoxic situations the breath rate / frequency would not go down (to stop) but instead go up (to meet the demands of oxygen in the body): lower uptake per breath due to thin air, therefore compensatory reaction of more frequent breathing:

                          "The common symptoms of hypoxia include increased breathing rate"

                          source:



                          also at FAA website:

                          Comment


                          • Medicine is not an exact science.
                            There are several types and causes of hypoxia http://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/h...s/sym-20050930

                            And people don't respond the same way.

                            We are talking rapid loss of O2 due to decompression.
                            In the case of slow/medium (not sudden) decompression, the ncrease breathing rate is expected in the initial moments. However, as time runs, the level of O2 may be so low that people losses consciousness. In the next stage, as the mechanism that is responsible for the breathing rate (O2/CO2 ratio) is "damaged" due to low levels of O2 in the blood, the breath rate decreases, reducing even more the O2 blood levels, initiating a "vicious circle" that ends in a respiratory arrest and finally death.
                            In some cases, mainly in sudden decompression, the process is so quick that the above pattern doesn't exis and death occurs in seconds due to other factors such as very low temperature, colapse of lungs, etc:

                            http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Hypoxia_(OGHFA_BN)

                            However it seems that from technical point of view, there are no signs of decompression (ACARS, alarms, flight pattern, etc)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              The door has an access code and each crew member has its own "secret" PIN that falls under one of these categories: cabin crew PIN or flight crew PIN.

                              When someone tries to access the cockpit with the access code, the pilots inside can deny the request.

                              Access code + 1 cabin crew PIN + 1 flight crew PIN, the access cannot be denied.

                              This is not a description of the current system, but an idea for the future one.
                              Yes, then put a lock switch to the side of each pilot at a distance too far for one person to reach. Operate both together to deny.

                              Comment


                              • Odd thing to say

                                From BBC
                                Mr Spohr said Mr Lubitz's training had been interrupted for several months six years ago, but was resumed after "the suitability of the candidate was re-established"

                                This implies that training was stopped because the candidate was unsuitable.

                                Something they are not telling us methinks.

                                Comment

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