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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ... The plane has spoken. The picture is largely there. Not 100% of course, but probably 99% ...
    What an excellent, analytical and lucid post. If only t'others could all match it.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Theoddkiwi View Post

      The deadbolt requires someone to physically move to the door and bolt it, rendering the electric lock system useless. This is supposed to be a back up if the electronic system is u/s or compromised. But the dead lock can be opened from the outside using an alternative method.

      I don't claim to be the world best speller. So that is a moot point.
      Errr yep you are right "world" best you are not!


      Maybe on the Airbus but not on the Boeing. I have no experience with the Airbus doors but I do have a bit with the Boeing doors. I have only flown 117 hours this month in one already!

      O.K. The auto-pilot is on, I slide my seat back for 2 seconds and throw the deadbolt. A really hard maneuver indeed! On the Boeing doors there is NO WAY to open that door from the outside once the deadbolt had been thrown short of a fireman's ax.

      Comment


      • I think we all need to take a step back here and agree that there is incontrovertible evidence that the FO used the aircrafts' systems to to cause the aircraft to descend from 38,000 feet to a targeted altitude of 100 feet. Further to that, the FO used the door locking mechanism to ensure that no one else could enter the cockpit to rectify the situation. In so doing the aircraft impacted the ground killing all on board. Forget all about WHY the FO did this. He did it and that's it.

        Let's instead ALL focus our energies on how to come to a solution that will prevent this ever happening again. The main problem with that is that we can never COMPLETELY eradicate the possibility of a repeat incident. There will always be variables, however unlikely they may be, that may bring about a repetition of this awful incident. What we need to do is to come to a "Best Action" solution in order to isolate the "what if's" to an acceptable level. We need to reduce the risk to a level where the required actions to bring about such an incident in the future are so outlandish and so difficult to bring together as a workable plan that they become 99.9% impossible.

        These are your working parameters.....over to you !
        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

        Comment


        • The French pilot's union is filing complaints because of violation of professional secrets in the ongoing investigation...

          "Nous sommes particulièrement choqués de la situation qui a consisté à ce que le Bureau d'enquête analyse fasse une conférence de presse à 17h en disant nous n'avons rien à vous dire. ALors que quelques heures plus tard, le New York Times de l'autre côté de l'Atlantique donne des informations extrêmement détaillées qui ont été confirmées par le procureur de la République. Contrairement à tous les engagements de confidentialité qui pèsent sur les gens qui font partie de l'enquête, il y a eu des fuites" a affirmé Eric Derivry, le porte-parole du Syndicat national des pilotes de ligne, sur RMC. "Nous nous avons pris la décision de porter plainte et nous appelons à une réforme du mode de fonctionnement du BEA."
          Pour savoir ce qui se passe maintenant - Toutes les infos livrées minute par minute par la rédaction de Franceinfo. Photos, vidéos, tweets et vos interventions

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          • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            Let's instead ALL focus our energies on how to come to a solution that will prevent this ever happening again.
            That is going to be very, very difficult. Someone dedicated at the controls will be very hard to stop, won't he?

            Comment


            • Just a reminder / restate.

              It did not matter that the pilot was NOT locked out of Egypt air...

              ...and I never thought of this, but I guess it's a little hard to put an Airbus into inverted and straight down dive attitudes...so maybe a person is generally able to fight their way back into the cockpit (assuming an unlocked door)...
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                As to the facts - we'll I've outlined a scenario similar to the "de-icing spray accident" in 2010 (see link somewhere above), or the one summarized by Peter a few posts back. I don't think it contradicts any of the known facts. but if you want, we can go step by step...
                De-icing at BCN?

                But I get your point because that event was more likely due to overloaded capacitors 'burning' out. That could happen. The key things to consider are:

                a) The smell was very noticeable to both crew for a significant period of time

                b) Despite the debilatating effects of the odor, neither pilot lost consciousness, in fact the PF executed a stable manual approach.

                So, with those facts in mind:

                a) The CPT would certainly not get up to leave the cockpit if a strange odor was present.

                b) The short period of time between when the CPT left and when the descent began (in your theory, initiated due to the presence of an acrid odor I assume) and when the CPT tried to re-enter the cockpit would not be adequate for the fumes to concentrate to the point that the F/O would become unable to respond. With all of these cockpit smoke theories, you have to consider the rate of onset. Very little time transpired here, you can't conveniently ignore that.

                c) Even if a sudden, strong odor suddenly filled the cockpit after the CPT left, I would expect the F/O to immediately recall him and get on 02 before making the decision to initate a descent. There was nothing on the CVR. Not even a groan or a cough.

                Now, on the other hand:

                d) It has been revealed by German prosecutors that the F/O had a history of depression and was concealing his condition—including a 'sick note' on the day of the flight—from the company.

                So, add all that up. How's it looking now?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                  Let's instead ALL focus our energies on how to come to a solution that will prevent this ever happening again.
                  Lufthansa presently does a mental health assessment once, when they induct the pilot into training. I'm sure this is true of most operators. That, as I said, needs improvement. The doors to focus on here are the pressure doors.

                  VIgilance is the word. For one thing, Law should require health care providers to report any conditions to operators that might impair a pilot's ability to perform. Becoming an airline pilot should require giving up a certain degree of privacy (although the imformation should also be kept confidential by the operators).

                  Crew members should be better trained on how to recognize signs of mental illness. A pilot should never leave another alone in the cockpit if that pilot makes them concerned. They should also encourage dialog when not in the sterile cockpit phase. That can be revealing.

                  But mental illness can remain very hidden. The place to discover it is not during flight.

                  I think regular blood/urine tests are reasonable as well. Again, goes with the responsibility. These should screen for pharmaceutical detections as well.

                  There should never be a scenario where either pilot can be locked out of the cockpit. Each should have a code that is different form the cabin crew and cannot be locked out. A key provision should also exist to operate the deadbolt from the outside. I think they took a too simplistic solution to the problem after 9/11. Now that we've seen the dark side of that, changes must be made.

                  ...and I never thought of this, but I guess it's a little hard to put an Airbus into inverted and straight down dive attitudes...
                  Not as hard as you think.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                    [...]
                    It's not just the Russians. I cannot fully judge the situation in Britain, but here we have a lot of trouble with people actually attacking the mainstream media, accusing them of lies and even warmongering against the Russians. PEGIDA guys are not the only ones shouting "Lügenpresse". And it's no longer small minority. As said above - conspiracy theorists are about to become main stream themselves again. And the silence of the Dutch regarding MH17 is actually seen as evidence that it was all a Ukranian trap and cover-up.
                    [...]
                    mfeldt - I don't know which media you read here in Germany, but from where I am sitting, PEGIDA has been out of the news for several weeks, since the movement and its leadership started to disintegrate. Even if people who think like that are not a small minority but only a minority, there is still a big majority, who doesn't share these views.

                    Mainstream media are notorious for being bad at reporting about aviation matters, and Der Spiegel is one of the worst examples.

                    As for the publication of the information in the case of 4U9525, I think it's altogether reasonable to do so, including data on the F/O as well as what's recorded on the CVR, as soon as there is a suspicion that the crash is not so much a question of air safety, but of a crime that was committed.
                    Last edited by Peter Kesternich; 2015-03-27, 15:43.

                    Comment


                    • It seems there is an additional flaw here!!!

                      If this information is correct, apparently the German Police found a ripped medical leave note in co -pilot's appartment. It was not delivered to Lufthansa as it was supposed to be. So Lufthansa could not be aware that the co -pilot could not fly for whatever medical condition the co -pilot was facing.
                      It also seems that the physician that issued the leave note was a "private non-related to Lufthansa" doctor.

                      In addition to the door looking mechanism, Second person in the flight deck, etc, my questions are:
                      Connsidering the physician-patient confidential information,
                      1) how to fill the possible communication gap between a "private" physician and the airliner?
                      2) what are the lyabilities in this poor-communication case?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                        [...]
                        In addition to the door looking mechanism, Second person in the flight deck, etc, my questions are:
                        Connsidering the physician-patient confidential information,
                        1) how to fill the possible communication gap between a "private" physician and the airliner?
                        2) what are the lyabilities in this poor-communication case?

                        Hmmmmm... how do you fill that communication gap for any other person, including those operating nuclear power plants, oil tankers, high-speed trains, and just about anybody else?

                        As for the liability, I'd say that it lies with the sick person... but of course I am not a law expert.

                        Comment


                        • There was a discussion on BBC Radio 4 World at One which included shrinks on the subject of depression. They said that within their profession they were surprised by the outcome, that many pilots had operated without problem for many years.

                          Depression is a bit of a catch-all term. I think we need to understand more deeply what exactly were the specific medical issues and other factors were at play here and not jump to premature solutions like firing anybody who has seen a shrink. The two people cockpit rule now being adopted by the remaining airlines is a sensible and easily implementable precaution while we figure out longer term solutions.

                          This episode appears to demonstrate that quick fix solutions from 9/11 don't always work out well.

                          Comment


                          • It seems like everyone is assuming the co-pilot was suffering from a psychological disorder, but it could have been a physical ailment that could have ended his flying career. Possibly a heart ailment, high blood pressure etc.. Realizing he might not be able to continue flying may have triggered him to do what he did!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by phoneman View Post
                              It seems like everyone is assuming the co-pilot was suffering from a psychological disorder, but it could have been a physical ailment that could have ended his flying career. Possibly a heart ailment, high blood pressure etc.. Realizing he might not be able to continue flying may have triggered him to do what he did!
                              But if that realization led him to fly a plane full of people into a mountain, that might very well be called a psychological disorder.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Brainsys View Post
                                Depression is a bit of a catch-all term.
                                Very much so. Like 'consumption' or 'dropsy'. And it is often a catch-all diagnosis for such things as bi-polar disorder and even schizophrenia. The treatment is a shotgun approach, flooding the brain with serotonin, which often leads to collateral mental health issues and personality changes. Pilots need to be very careful with antidepressents.

                                I've gotten to know a few bi-polar, manic-depressive and schizophenic people. Things can shift very quickly. It's wild speculation of course, but I would not be surprised if this F/O had no intention of crashing the plane until the CPT left the cockpit and the sudden impulse took over.

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