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  • #16
    I'm always a little amused by discussions about modern cabin comfort, That's because I grew up riding around in Constellations in the 50's when they only had 50 or so seats per aircraft. The seats were wide, comfortable, fully reclining, and had lots of legroom. Not to mention that real meals were served on real china and with real utensils, no plastic at all to be seen. One of the glories of propliners was that the slower speeds allowed plenty of time for full meal service, even on relatively short legs. If the same Connies were flying today they would likely have 100 seats or so per aircraft.

    In the 60's when the first generation of jets came into service the seating was still pretty good for the first half of the decade. I think what really changed the whole airline attitude about seat pitch was the US Army. Beginning in the mid-60s the Army began chartering major carriers to fly soldiers to Saigon, Vietnam. The army specified all cabin class and a much closer seat pitch than had been common. A number of big US carriers converted aircraft to suit the Army demands. As the war wound down a lot of these planes were kept at the more cramped seat pitch, with only a First Class section being put back as it had been previously. When passengers didn't scream about the tighter seating the airlines saw big profits in putting all their planes in that configuration. Of course some business travelers did complain and that's why Business class evolved. It was basically just the same seating that cabin class used to have.

    As the wide-bodies came into service at the end of the 60's we should have seen an increase in passenger room. Sadly they came online at the same time the airline beancounters had become enamored with the whole idea of tighter seating equating to greater profits. In the end I don't think it has anything to do with passenger demand as some have posited.

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    • #17
      The business class was invented by Jan Carlzon, SAS' CEO, with the slogan "the closer you'll be from first class for the price of a full fare tourist class seat", or something like that.

      Or at least that's what Carlzon says in his excellent management book "moments of truth". In which, by the way, he describes how he encouraged (and empowered) the front-line employee to take business risks in favor of passenger service.

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
        If what you've posted about your size is true, even EK's First Class seats would likely feel cramped.
        That comment needs a humorous smilie !

        And it's completely incorrect.
        EK first class seats are great for me. Their business class seats are very good and their economy seats are acceptable. I might be a fat bastard but I'm losing weight on a diet right now.
        I feel sorry for the poor bastards who have no cure for being ugly bastards ! Comfortable or uncomfortable......they're still ugly !
        Last edited by brianw999; 2014-10-14, 19:22.
        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          i disagree with this assertion that the public has caused this. please provide me with some real evidence that there was a large outcry or boycott of airlines that has led to the ridiculous level of cramping and crammin every single conceivable seat into airplanes to make them more profitable to fly FOR THE AIRLINES.

          sure, the number of people flying has increased, but so has the population in general. we are a much more mobile--out of necessity--species now than 30 years ago, a time when air travel was faaaaaarrrrrr better than today.

          do we accept the horrid condition we are forced into? yeah, but not because the alternatives are so much better.

          face it, airlines are pushing until they can't push any more. the fact that many if not most keep flying doesn't prove that we asked for it or that we even accept it. it just means that we begrudgingly allow the gross indignation because we have no choice. but dont think for one minute that the deplorable conditions we are forced into dont cause a lot of the air rage.
          You do have a choice, you have plenty of choice actually. Lots of airlines offer premium economy, or you can fly business class everywhere. Or if you want you can fly first. Or you can even buy your own jet & crew and mechanics.

          If you are complaining specifically about cramped economy class services, my point stands. People would rather pay less and get bare minimum service. The standard of service people will pay for at an economy class price point has been set over the last decade by most of the low fare carrier industry. Do you see many of those airlines turning insane profits? Are they just squeezing the consumer and reaping the rewards? There isn't much evidence as far as airline profitability has been going the last few years.

          We didn't ask for this, but it's what we are willing to pay for. Legacy carriers offering what used to be full service in economy cannot compete with the low fare model on the same routes for that price point. Thats just the way it is. Personally I prefer having the availability of cheap fares that has democratized air travel, vs. keeping flying more expensive just for the sake of slightly more comfort. If you want that, pay more.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
            You do have a choice, you have plenty of choice actually. Lots of airlines offer premium economy, or you can fly business class everywhere. Or if you want you can fly first. Or you can even buy your own jet & crew and mechanics.

            If you are complaining specifically about cramped economy class services, my point stands. People would rather pay less and get bare minimum service. The standard of service people will pay for at an economy class price point has been set over the last decade by most of the low fare carrier industry. Do you see many of those airlines turning insane profits? Are they just squeezing the consumer and reaping the rewards? There isn't much evidence as far as airline profitability has been going the last few years.

            We didn't ask for this, but it's what we are willing to pay for. Legacy carriers offering what used to be full service in economy cannot compete with the low fare model on the same routes for that price point. Thats just the way it is. Personally I prefer having the availability of cheap fares that has democratized air travel, vs. keeping flying more expensive just for the sake of slightly more comfort. If you want that, pay more.
            wait! you can actually buy people now??????? holy shit! slavery is back! lemme run out right now and buy me some crew and mechanics. hopefully they're fresh off the boat and strong.

            seriously, before i get into this again, let's here how many times you fly per year out of necessity (family or work). i don't give a shit about vacationers and miserly folk that fly once per two years.

            it's easy to armchair 1/4back this and tell others to, go buy 1st class if you want room. it's also the EXACT attitude that permits airlines to get away with screwing pax.

            it's not about what we've demanded. that's bullshit and you know it. just because pax shop for best fares doesn't mean they've demanded them. and in reality, almost all airlines in any given market are just about equal. is 1" difference between United and AA a real difference? no. and there isn't much of a price difference either. forget about outliers like spirit, who like ryan air are categorically off limits to many folks and have all boundaries of decency. oh, and unless you fly them naked, like Brain said of ryan air the price difference isn't all that huge.

            people must fly. it is no longer the luxury it was 40 years ago. our society has changed. we are far more mobile and globalization has forced businesses to force their employees to move about. families no longer settle in or around one city. they are spread across a country or across the globe. i guess following your ideas we should just give up on being able to visit our loved ones with any sense of human dignity, let alone that evil seven letter word..............comfort, without having to spend absolutely insane amounts on business class seats.

            here's a scary example. MIA - SIN 90 day advance purchase, cheapest coach fare per kayak.com: $965 (not too bad for a 27000+ mile flight). cheapest biz class fare, wait for it, $5728 (requiring 39 hours one way and 42 hours on the return!!!). yeah, and what exactly do you get for nearly SIX TIMES THE PRICE? don't get me started on 1st class ($12585)...

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              wait! you can actually buy people now??????? holy shit! slavery is back! lemme run out right now and buy me some crew and mechanics. hopefully they're fresh off the boat and strong.

              seriously, before i get into this again, let's here how many times you fly per year out of necessity (family or work). i don't give a shit about vacationers and miserly folk that fly once per two years.
              I fly on average 3 to 4 round trips per month.

              it's easy to armchair 1/4back this and tell others to, go buy 1st class if you want room. it's also the EXACT attitude that permits airlines to get away with screwing pax.

              it's not about what we've demanded. that's bullshit and you know it. just because pax shop for best fares doesn't mean they've demanded them. and in reality, almost all airlines in any given market are just about equal. is 1" difference between United and AA a real difference? no. and there isn't much of a price difference either. forget about outliers like spirit, who like ryan air are categorically off limits to many folks and have all boundaries of decency. oh, and unless you fly them naked, like Brain said of ryan air the price difference isn't all that huge.
              You're making my point for me. Why are all the prices so low with hardly any difference between them? Why have all the legacy carriers reduced their economy class product as to make them almost indistinguishable from low fare carriers? It's so obvious...they've done it to compete with low fare prices. Out of pure necessity. How many airlines offering niche premium services of the business class variety have started up and failed? Here is another such example that just recently began service at a very attractive price point...basically just a few hundred dollars more than full service economy fares for business class service, or, exactly what you are complaining does not exist.

              How long do you think they will last, and why is it these airlines are only profitable on high density routes like Paris-New York? Some of the airlines have delivered what you're asking for, it's called premium economy, and it seems to be on the rise. But cattle class is here to stay, particularly in the new "normal" of this slow economy with stagnant wages for the middle class.

              people must fly. it is no longer the luxury it was 40 years ago. our society has changed. we are far more mobile and globalization has forced businesses to force their employees to move about. families no longer settle in or around one city. they are spread across a country or across the globe. i guess following your ideas we should just give up on being able to visit our loved ones with any sense of human dignity, let alone that evil seven letter word..............comfort, without having to spend absolutely insane amounts on business class seats.
              Again, that is my point. People would rather fly for a cheaper fare. if you think flying these days strips us of human dignity, and lacks enough comfort, you lack the ability to see what an immense privilege modern air travel is for all of us. The airlines have been able to squeeze us recently and cut services and increase fees, but that's because hardly any of them have been profitable in the last decade. They are just emerging out of a long dark period that followed the turn of the millennium. AA just became profitable this year after emerging from bankruptcy last year. Only southwest managed to turn a profit in the years after 9/11. Then you can factor in the completely wild fluctuations in the price of oil, which drive fares up and down constantly. It's a very complex industry.

              here's a scary example. MIA - SIN 90 day advance purchase, cheapest coach fare per kayak.com: $965 (not too bad for a 27000+ mile flight). cheapest biz class fare, wait for it, $5728 (requiring 39 hours one way and 42 hours on the return!!!). yeah, and what exactly do you get for nearly SIX TIMES THE PRICE? don't get me started on 1st class ($12585)...
              If I were you I would pay a few hundred more and fly Qatar via Doha, their economy product is far superior, and the 1 stop connection is much easier than being crammed on 3 different United airplanes with 1 hour connection times (always dangerous with UA). $1303 to fly from Miami all the way to Singapore with just one stop is a pretty great fare.

              The same exact Qatar flight can be purchased in business class for $5591. Their business class product is pretty serious: http://hackmytrip.com/2014/06/review...s-doha-london/

              I will give you this though, if you are from Miami you are basically stuck with American Airlines...MIA has some of the least choices air travel wise of any major city in the US. It sucks, and there is much less competition there. I usually fly into FLL with Virgin America when I go to Miami instead.

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              • #22
                i see you've missed all my points entirely.

                ok. you win. i can't be bothered arguing with someone who simply is not reading...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  i see you've missed all my points entirely.

                  ok. you win. i can't be bothered arguing with someone who simply is not reading...
                  I am sure that he was thinking the same thing. How is it exactly that you are a qualified attorney?
                  Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    flew on the new to AA A320B and have to say i was impressed. flew in first, which is really biz class, but since it was a domestic flight AA bills it as a 1st class cabin.

                    seats were comfy and had good support. still no foot rest, the lack of which escapes and confounds me. cabin was roomy and felt larger. IFE system was ok. my complaint is with the design of the controller, which tucks out of the way like older models. very unintuitive setup and navigating the screen menus was a pain in the ass.i'd love to meet the designers and ask them to explain how they thought their system made sense.

                    probably the best part of this plane is the loo. BOEING!!!! ARE YOU LISTENING???? airbus managed to make a bathroom that isn't claustrophobically small. you can actually turn around without bumping a wall or the door. it's not cavernous by any stretch of the imagination, but it works and is comfortable.

                    aside from the above, it's an airplane.
                    You are referring to an aircraft that, for the maximum, has been in service for one year. The aircraft's cabin and design has been done under the 'New American' standard with newer design specifications, newer design concepts and on a newer platform. In other words, a new canvas, with a new artist. Of course there was going to be a change, and I guess the only Kudos here is to compliment AA for getting it 'right'.

                    There are many carriers operating the A320 that have done a poor job at cabin design. Consider EasyJet's or even Spirit's cabins and how, with their choices of low costs would drive their own internal aircraft configurations.

                    I don't believe that this is a 'Boeing VS Airbus' issue as much as it is a matter of newer versus older design principles.

                    For some inspiration - consider this video of Embraer's design concept on the E-Jets E2 ; and as someone that has worked, flew and thoroughly enjoyed the present E-Jets, this is a welcome improvement

                    Step inside the Embraer E-Jet E2 narrow-body medium-range aircraft, with an all-new concept interior designed in conjunction with Priestmangoode


                    How many carriers will place a Business Class cabin on E-Jets? How many do that currently? Look at the space in the bathroom! Look at the space emulated in the cabin! Again, this is their design concept. How will a premium carrier design their cabin? How will an LCC?
                    Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                      2) it would be nice if someone gave a rat's ass about pax comfort. someone. anyone. Bueller???
                      Welcome to Capitalism, comrade. That advocate of passenger comfort is - imagine this - the passenger. They can choose, a matter of their personal freedom - to minimize their financial burden at the risk of their comfort - or the inverse.
                      Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        The public at large doesn't know what's good for it. Therefore, the Government should take care of that for them...
                        I am sorry, but wasn't that determined to be false in December of 1991.
                        Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                          i disagree with this assertion that the public has caused this. please provide me with some real evidence that there was a large outcry or boycott of airlines that has led to the ridiculous level of cramping and crammin every single conceivable seat into airplanes to make them more profitable to fly FOR THE AIRLINES.
                          The large outcry and boycott have been a visceral revolution in the Industry and has loudly and significantly effected the operation of all airlines. Case in point;

                          Braniff Airlines - 05/13/1982.
                          Eastern Airlines - 03/09/1989.
                          Pan American Airlines - 01/08/1991.
                          TWA - 01/10/2001.
                          U.S. Airways - 09/12/2004 (as part of their acquisition by the LCC-esque America West).
                          MaxJet Airways - 12/26/2007.
                          EOS Airlines - 08/26/2008.
                          Mexicana - 08/28/2010.

                          All of the above entered bankruptcy. Why? Because as businesses they failed to maintain their profitability - enough so to either maintain their own sovereignty to remain in operation.

                          Which carriers have grown significantly?

                          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                          sure, the number of people flying has increased, but so has the population in general. we are a much more mobile--out of necessity--species now than 30 years ago, a time when air travel was faaaaaarrrrrr better than today.

                          do we accept the horrid condition we are forced into? yeah, but not because the alternatives are so much better.

                          face it, airlines are pushing until they can't push any more. the fact that many if not most keep flying doesn't prove that we asked for it or that we even accept it. it just means that we begrudgingly allow the gross indignation because we have no choice. but dont think for one minute that the deplorable conditions we are forced into dont cause a lot of the air rage.
                          We do have a choice. You make that choice daily, and your AAdvantage membership is indicative of said choice. You could chose to fly any one of American's competitors - you can chose to walk, to use a train, to use a boat, to use another airline, to pay more, to wait more, to travel less, to not travel at all (and take advantage of Skype), or you can endorse technologies such a teleportation).

                          Air travel is a privilege, not a right. Such an assertion is, frankly, a first world problem. In a world where the billions do not have access to decent wages, the ability to move out of poverty, and the basic essentials for a better life - they are not clamoring for first class space to live, much less to fly.

                          As someone that travels to Managua, I thought that this would not be far from your mind.

                          http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/nicaragua

                          Nicaragua is the second poorest nation in the region after Haiti.
                          I am not in complete disagreement with you - I agree that standards need to rise, and that the average passenger in coach is privy to conditions that they do not agree with. That said, airlines are businesses. We can support those that serve us well, and deny our purchasing power to those that do not.
                          Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            wait! you can actually buy people now??????? holy shit! slavery is back! lemme run out right now and buy me some crew and mechanics. hopefully they're fresh off the boat and strong.
                            Seriously, all joking aside - I am sick of your idiotic hyperboles. Do you, for one minute, understand what slavery was? You are a deplorable, ignorant, sad excuse for a 'intelligent' human being if you can compare his statement to slavery.



                            The last time that someone compared slavery to air travel - here's what happened...




                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            It's not about what we've demanded. that's bullshit and you know it. just because pax shop for best fares doesn't mean they've demanded them.
                            Um, that's exactly what that mean.




                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            People must fly. it is no longer the luxury it was 40 years ago. our society has changed.
                            Flying is a privilege, not a right. There is no goverment in the world that has endorsed flying as a constitutional or human right.


                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            We are far more mobile and globalization has forced businesses to force their employees to move about. families no longer settle in or around one city. they are spread across a country or across the globe.
                            http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...e-deregulation

                            "The inflation adjusted 1982 constant dollar yield for airlines has fallen from 12.3 cents in 1978 to 7.9 cents in 1997. This means that airline ticket prices are almost 40% lower today than they were in 1978 when the airlines were deregulated."
                            http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/...80140100965480
                            Along with rising US. populations[13] and the increasing demand of work-force-mobility, these trends were some of the catalysts for dramatic expansion in passenger miles flown, increasing from 250 million passenger miles in 1978 to 750 million passenger miles in 2005.
                            Again, cause and effect.

                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            i guess following your ideas we should just give up on being able to visit our loved ones with any sense of human dignity, let alone that evil seven letter word..............comfort, without having to spend absolutely insane amounts on business class seats.
                            You know, on the MIA-Managua route - you could take the Tri-Rail to FLL, and fly Spirit on their Business Class. It would likely be cheaper than AA, if you're so inclined. That's a choice.

                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            Here's a scary example. MIA - SIN 90 day advance purchase, cheapest coach fare per kayak.com: $965 (not too bad for a 27000+ mile flight). cheapest biz class fare, wait for it, $5728 (requiring 39 hours one way and 42 hours on the return!!!). yeah, and what exactly do you get for nearly SIX TIMES THE PRICE? don't get me started on 1st class ($12585)...
                            Interestingly enough - you chose Kayak, a site whose main cirterion for displaying options is price. Can you search on Kayak via seat pitch, comfort, airline rating, aircraft type or even human rights indicies? Nop. Why? Because you're a capitalist - and you are one of millions of customers. Welcome to the world. While you don't want to pay the $12,585 to travel to SIN, guess what - there are many people that do, enough in fact that quite a few airlines fly to Singapore, and quite a few offer cabins and services (get this...) entirely devoted to passengers willing to pay that price.

                            Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean that others cannot. I too wish that I could spend that much to fly off to Singapore. Do I spit in the face of first class passengers when boarding and shuffling to coach? Maybe I should run into you on my next flight. Do I rally the revolution when I check in? Not so. But I do have a choice. If I wanted to see my family, I can chose to walk, to bike, to take a boat, to skype, or to fly with even fewer choices than you have on your trips.
                            Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              like i said, he was right. about everything. i navel lint. i'm stupid. i'm ignorant. i can't read, let alone write. i have zero experience in this area. in fact, i don't even deserve to be on this forum. the fact that i'm allowed on here leads me to believe i should kissing the fingers and asses of the rest of the folks here.

                              btw AA1818, what flavor of koolaid did you chug?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                                like i said, he was right. about everything. i navel lint. i'm stupid. i'm ignorant. i can't read, let alone write. i have zero experience in this area. in fact, i don't even deserve to be on this forum. the fact that i'm allowed on here leads me to believe i should kissing the fingers and asses of the rest of the folks here.

                                btw AA1818, what flavor of koolaid did you chug?
                                I am not going to throw or cater your pity party.

                                I agree with you on quite a few points. From a passenger's perspective it is frustrating. Believe me, at over 6 feet tall, long haul in coach is a personal hell. I do however think that you are ignorant on how the industry has and does function. I am all for change, and I do think that if you were better informed about the industry and processes that you could form quite a few great ideas (that I would support) because they are more intelligent and have a greater chance of success. Case in point, we live and work in a capitalist society. How can a consumer make viable and credible changes to the industry?

                                Apart from choice, and as a man of voting age (I assume that you'll agree with me here) save from government intervention (they can't even get to work...), what other options do we have? I am always hoping for a viable solution, and I think that you are intelligent enough (if informed well enough about the business) to come up with some brilliant solutions. Again, I don't disagree with your sentiments, and I don't think that you are unintelligent (save for your slavery analogy). I think that you belong here, and that your voice is valid. I also think, though, that you have a lot to learn.
                                Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                                Comment

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