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Piper PA-32 down on Atlanta Motorway

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  • Piper PA-32 down on Atlanta Motorway

    "It looked like it was struggling. You could see him trying to get the nose of the plane up. It was edging up, and then it just dropped,"

    Hmmm, why didn't that work?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    "It looked like it was struggling. You could see him trying to get the nose of the plane up. It was edging up, and then it just dropped,"

    Hmmm, why didn't that work?
    stall
    1. n Loss of lift due to the airfoil exceeding the critical angle of attack.
    2. v To struggle to try to get the nose of the plane up, and then it just drops.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

    Comment


    • #3
      Judging by the size of the debris field it went in straight down. RIP four humans and one dog.
      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Evan and Gabriel
        Pimple-faced-flight-simmer stall comments.
        Gentlemen...

        Methinks this crash is an engine problem.

        And until you are faced with an unstoppable descent at 100 MPH into big-ass trees and semi trucks and bridges and houses and road signs (and tall steel and concrete downtown buildings in China in an ATR), I think there needs to be some acknowledgement that this isn't a mindless, unfathomable, 6 minute, relentless, 35,000 ft pull up...
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          Gentlemen...

          Methinks this crash is an engine problem.

          And until you are faced with an unstoppable descent at 100 MPH into big-ass trees and semi trucks and bridges and houses and road signs (and tall steel and concrete downtown buildings in China in an ATR), I think there needs to be some acknowledgement that this isn't a mindless, unfathomable, 6 minute, relentless, 35,000 ft pull up...
          3WE, you are putting too many words in my mouth.

          I merely intended to say that the quote posted by Evan matches the definition of stall. I didn't do any judgement about the conditions and pilot's actions surrounding that stall because, to begin with, I have no idea what this accident is about but for the tittle of the thread and the quote posted by Evan.

          I see no link, picture or video included in any of the posts.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • #6
            Four people are killed after a small aeroplane slams into one of Atlanta's main motorways.


            A single-engine plane slams into Interstate 285 just north of Atlanta, Georgia, killing all four people aboard and severely snarling traffic.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              3WE, you are putting too many words in my mouth.
              Indeed.

              I was pointing out that you had only one word in your mouth.

              ...the stall word.

              Neither of you didn't say that other things weren't involved.

              But that left the thread with no mention that other things probably were involved.

              I wanted to add that this probably was not a mindless, relentless stall (and of course Razz you for being single-mindedly obsessed with stalls )
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                Indeed.

                I was pointing out that you had only one word in your mouth.

                ...the stall word.

                Neither of you didn't say that other things weren't involved.

                But that left the thread with no mention that other things POSSIBLY were involved.

                I wanted to add that this probably was not a mindless, relentless stall (and of course Razz you for being single-mindedly obsessed with stalls )
                Fixed ?

                99% PROBABLY a stall.

                1% remaining covered by a sudden CofG shift caused by a massive fuel leak into the engine compartment and/or the rear seat passengers saying "bollocks to this !" and jumping out of the aircraft or the dog leaping forward, saying "I have control", and shoving the control column forwards and opening the throttle fully in order to increase forward speed in an attempt to regain sufficient lift and airspeed to recover. Unfortunately they were too low and poor old Rover's brave actions were unsuccessful.
                Let's hear it for the canine world ! RAH, RAH !
                If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  I wanted to add that this probably was not a mindless, relentless stall
                  What is a relentless stall? One where the pilot does not relent upon stall warning (or buffet) and continues pulling up until the aircraft "just drops"?

                  This probably was that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Evan,

                    I don't like 3WE's attempt to interpret what we (and in particular I) have NOT said.

                    But I see a difference between a pilot stalling at thousands of feet and keep pulling up all the way to the crash site, and a pilot stalling as he tries to get from the airplane performance that is just not there in a last resource attempt avoid a crash (and in this way crashing even worse).

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      Evan,

                      I don't like 3WE's attempt to interpret what we (and in particular I) have NOT said.

                      But I see a difference between a pilot stalling at thousands of feet and keep pulling up all the way to the crash site, and a pilot stalling as he tries to get from the airplane performance that is just not there in a last resource attempt avoid a crash (and in this way crashing even worse).
                      Yeah, I don't recall either of us comparing this to AF447 or Colgan. But I don't see any difference in one respect: wrong instinct. In other words, right instinct not taught by certified instructor. When will it end. I don't know the details of this one but it is entirely possible that the crash would have been survivable if the pilot had the right instinct. Or am I expecting too much again?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        Yeah, I don't recall either of us comparing this to AF447 or Colgan. But I don't see any difference in one respect: wrong instinct. In other words, right instinct not taught by certified instructor. When will it end. I don't know the details of this one but it is entirely possible that the crash would have been survivable if the pilot had the right instinct. Or am I expecting too much again?
                        And how do you expect to build this instinct in a pilot?

                        Practicing 2000 stalls at 4000ft will prepare you technically to react correctly to a stall, but not psychologically and physiologically.

                        Knowing that, no matter what, you may very well be dead in 5 seconds triggers all kind of psychological factors (like panic, tunnel vision, denial) and physiological factors (especially adrenaline rush) that can make it very difficult to select and correctly execute the action that is least likely to kill you.

                        Perhaps practicing real engine failures from 200ft with really no suitable place to land? Even simulators are not totally dependable here because the pilot knows that is a simulation so his body and mind doesn't necessarily react as it will in a real imminent life-or-death crisis. It is unpredictable how an individual person will react in such situations and the person-to-person variation is huge.

                        Granted, good training cannot harm and it will increase the chances that you keep your wits and react correctly. But there is no guarantee.

                        This pilot could have been not very well trained, or could have been perfectly trained and handled with superb airmanship any simulated emergency, still failed the test of the real crisis.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Evan,

                          I don't like 3WE's attempt to interpret what we (and in particular I) have NOT said.

                          But I see a difference between a pilot stalling at thousands of feet and keep pulling up all the way to the crash site, and a pilot stalling as he tries to get from the airplane performance that is just not there in a last resource attempt avoid a crash (and in this way crashing even worse).
                          Guys...Nothing wrong with your original comments other than the context was not particularly clear.

                          I think Evan was poking fun at the witness who said they guy was trying to pull up but the plane didn't climb.

                          But conversely one might read Evan's comments and think, "Wow, another dumb pilot relentlessly pulling up". It wasn't really all that clear.

                          Then Gabriel responds with a stall comment that's very simplistic.

                          Was that "playing along" with banter and explaining it (slowly) for the (dumb) the eyewitness who thinks a stall is what his car does when it runs out of gas...

                          ...or was he explaining it slowly for the dumb pilot who's obviously forgotten that incredibly basic stall thing.

                          Repeating- all those omissions and total focus on stalls when the primary cause is probably a loss of power...

                          Not what you said, but what you didn't say...

                          And I appreciate your further comments that a stall and no recovery at 3000 feet is not the same as a stall made just above a concrete bridge when you are running out of airspeed, altitude and ideas...

                          It's nice when the 172 snags a branch and hangs 30 feet in the air. Other times it catches a power pole and sticks itself into the golf course exactly wrong and kills the instructor.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            And how do you expect to build this instinct in a pilot?

                            Practicing 2000 stalls at 4000ft will prepare you technically to react correctly to a stall, but not psychologically and physiologically.

                            Knowing that, no matter what, you may very well be dead in 5 seconds triggers all kind of psychological factors (like panic, tunnel vision, denial) and physiological factors (especially adrenaline rush) that can make it very difficult to select and correctly execute the action that is least likely to kill you.

                            Perhaps practicing real engine failures from 200ft with really no suitable place to land? Even simulators are not totally dependable here because the pilot knows that is a simulation so his body and mind doesn't necessarily react as it will in a real imminent life-or-death crisis. It is unpredictable how an individual person will react in such situations and the person-to-person variation is huge.

                            Granted, good training cannot harm and it will increase the chances that you keep your wits and react correctly. But there is no guarantee.

                            This pilot could have been not very well trained, or could have been perfectly trained and handled with superb airmanship any simulated emergency, still failed the test of the real crisis.
                            I understand that in a situation like this, the survival instinct is going to determine your actions, but why does that instinct have to tell you to pull up? If piloting schools, from day one, stressed the mantra 'don't stall' and the relationship between airspeed and self-preservation, the survival instinct reaction might be quite different. "Don't sink" will always be the loudest voice in your head when you are about to crash, but if you equate stall with sink and pulling up with dropping like a stone then maybe you would be more prone to not sink by gliding down as slowly as possible. If you are about to impact something concrete and there is no way around it, then whatever, you might a well stall and get it over with, but I don't think this was the case here and it usually isn't the case in these power-out stalls.

                            I think you could teach a dog to not stall a plane. I don't think this very basic, very essential aspect of flight is emphasized in proportion to its importance during flight training. I think it is relegated to being a technical procedure. The very first thing that should be hammered into an aspiring pilot is "You lose an engine, you fly. You lose the wings, you die."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              I think you could teach a dog to not stall a plane.
                              I'd like to watch you try.

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