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37 sould and an AF 777 saved by GPWS

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  • 37 sould and an AF 777 saved by GPWS

    Flying at 9000ft in the proximity of a 13000ft mountain.

    Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  • #2
    Well we've already established AF can't aviate, now it appears they can't navigate either. I guess communication is next!

    On a slightly more serious note... a 777 operating a 65-mile leg at FL090 - isn't that a little weird?
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    • #3
      Hmmmmmm... I think their food is pretty good, their seats are comfortable and their cabin crews do a good job... so far, I have enjoyed all my trips with them. Is it time to steer clear of Air France?

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      • #4
        Why the GPWS and not a much earlier warning from the basic navigation TV with an airlplane symbol and flashing red terrain that's near the plane's altitude or higher?
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          Why the GPWS and not a much earlier warning from the basic navigation TV with an airlplane symbol and flashing red terrain that's near the plane's altitude or higher?
          Terrain information is optional twice:
          - First, it's an optionional feature that requires purchase and subscription to keep updated.
          - Second, if installed, it's optional whether you have this fucntion selected or not.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            Terrain information is optional twice:
            - First, it's an optionional feature that requires purchase and subscription to keep updated.
            - Second, if installed, it's optional whether you have this fucntion selected or not.
            I was being more philosophical.

            With all the computer monitoring gizmos why isn't there a "GPS" system and a TV with an amazingly simple depiction of terrain to alert the pilots a minute or two before a radar altimeter sees a problem
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #7
              EGPWS (which that 777 surely had) is basically just that. It looks at the aircraft's current location and flight path, and uses a database to determine if the a/c is headed toward terrain. If it is, it of course issues a warning.

              I believe most if not all EGPWS systems also include a graphical display, but as Gabriel pointed out it's probably part of a multifunction display which may not have been showing that info at the time.
              Be alert! America needs more lerts.

              Eric Law

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                I was being more philosophical.

                With all the computer monitoring gizmos why isn't there a "GPS" system and a TV with an amazingly simple depiction of terrain to alert the pilots a minute or two before a radar altimeter sees a problem
                Pilots fly relatively close to terrain, within the required safety margins, for legit reasons. And if the pilot decided not to display the map maybe it is for good reasons. You don't want false alarms and remove what could be important information just to show the pilot that he is flying exactly where he knew he was flying.

                The system assumes that the pilot knows what he is doing until it says "Or does he? Terrain, terrain, woop woop pull up."

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  I was being more philosophical.

                  With all the computer monitoring gizmos why isn't there a "GPS" system and a TV with an amazingly simple depiction of terrain to alert the pilots a minute or two before a radar altimeter sees a problem
                  You're talking about synthetic vision. I think the 787 and A350 have it. Not a simple graphic depiction as you suggest but I think simple and graphic would be better. Don't fly into the red shape.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    You're talking about synthetic vision. I think the 787 and A350 have it. Not a simple graphic depiction as you suggest but I think simple and graphic would be better. Don't fly into the red shape.
                    Yeah/Kinda/Sort of...something that would be clear to any pimple-faced-flight-simmer, as well as an ATP, that would cause them to change course long before it became a newsworthy event...
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #11
                      One relevant question would be "*was* this actually a newsworthy event"?

                      I think with the original GPWS systems a "pull up, terrain" warning would be close to being an emergency. With only radio altimeter input, it would only give a warning when you actually *reached* rising terrain, and an immediate rapid climb or turn would be needed to avoid an impact.

                      EGPWS systems can give a warning up to 5 miles ahead of time. So it could be much less urgent - more of a "you better climb *before* getting that cup of coffee rather than after". Depending on the specifics of the situation of course.

                      I guess what I'm saying is while a truly good pilot would probably never get such a warning, an EGPWS terrain warning could indicate slightly subpar performance on the pilot's part whereas the same warning from a GPWS system means you're *that close* to killing everyone on board.
                      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                      Eric Law

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by elaw View Post
                        EGPWS systems can give a warning up to 5 miles ahead of time.
                        If it is working. The FAA's standardized MMEL format for GPWS and TAWS states that planes can be dispatched with the predictive terrain aspect of EGPWS inop provided "alternate procedures are established and used". Such as aviate and navigate I guess. There is no stated restriction on how many flights may be made in this condition. Depending on the operator, it seems that planes can also be dispatched for two flight days with the entire GPWS MEL'd as well. So if you climb into the cockpit and see the TERR FAIL message, you might have to stay awake up there.

                        I imagine SVS would have the same dispatch allowances. Technology is a great asset but as long as it can be MEL'd we still need pilots that are not as daft as certain AIR FRANCE pilots I can think of...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by elaw View Post
                          One relevant question would be "*was* this actually a newsworthy event"?

                          I think with the original GPWS systems a "pull up, terrain" warning would be close to being an emergency. With only radio altimeter input, it would only give a warning when you actually *reached* rising terrain, and an immediate rapid climb or turn would be needed to avoid an impact.

                          EGPWS systems can give a warning up to 5 miles ahead of time. So it could be much less urgent - more of a "you better climb *before* getting that cup of coffee rather than after". Depending on the specifics of the situation of course.

                          I guess what I'm saying is while a truly good pilot would probably never get such a warning, an EGPWS terrain warning could indicate slightly subpar performance on the pilot's part whereas the same warning from a GPWS system means you're *that close* to killing everyone on board.
                          The EGPWS added a "terain ahead" warning, which activated in this case, but this flight managed to trigger the "woop woop pull up" one too, which, having more buffer than the same warning in the old GPWS, is still a dare situation that requires following the memory items for terrain escape.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by elaw View Post
                            Well we've already established AF can't aviate, now it appears they can't navigate either. I guess communication is next!
                            Didn't have to wait too long!


                            "Fighter jets escort Air France plane to Kennedy Airport after threats against flights bound for New York, New Jersey":

                            But it was the slow response to U.S. government requests for information from the cockpit of Air France Flight 22 that sent the F-16s screaming into the sky, sources said.
                            The U.S. military scrambled its jets Monday and escorted a New York City-bound flight into Kennedy Airport after a cruel crank caller told cops chemical weapons were on the plane. Two other flights…


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