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Malaysia Airlines Loses Contact With 777 en Route to Beijing

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  • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    And if that did'nt work ? Have you ever tried to strangle someone ? It's not as easy as the films might suggest.


    It's irrelevant whether it is hard or not to strangle one. What matters is:
    - if one of the pilots may think it's easy (I'd think it's easy to strangle unsuspecting pilot with a wire or something like that, a pilot on that flight could probably think the same, even if it's wrong after all).
    - if the pilot may finally succeed in eliminating the other, strangling him or otherwise.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      And if one of them did, the evidence favor Ocean Shield.
      Right. I don't know why I thought it's the Chinese ship detecting the signal twice.

      Anyway, my point is that more signal detections = the better. Hope they won't all be proven invalid.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        (...)Is there any plausible reason to go to FL450...any scenario where 5 vs 1 sec might make a difference...and in a "brainstorming" context...I don't THINK there is, but who knows.

        For all we know, the plane never left FL350. The alleged altitude excursions have never been confirmed as far as I know. (See here: http://leehamnews.com/2014/03/31/mh3...-investigator/)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by kris View Post
          Right. I don't know why I thought it's the Chinese ship detecting the signal twice.
          Because they did. Both ships detected their signals, lost them, and regained them, and lost them again (for good until now). The difference is that Ocean Shield identified two sources at the same time. If the standard sequence in one ping per second and you detect two pings per second, maybe one of them fainter than the other, that's an indication of two different sources (although one of the "sources" can be in fact a different path or echo of the same emission).

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • Fox Radio just played the recording of the "ping" signals detected by an australian ship. They sound identical to the ULB signals to me.
            A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

            Comment


            • Are there limitations besides the CVR that a knowledgeable saboteur could exploit to prevent safety authorities from reaching a definite conclusion about the crash?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                I've been wondering about that 45,000 ft thing from the hair splitting standpoint...

                ....Like at 40K you might have a few seconds of consciousness (emphasis on few) to get to some O2, while at 45K you'd have closer to nothing?

                ...then again, I'm struggling with the physiology...I can hold my breath for 30 seconds- I don't know that the O2 held in my blood is going to switch to unavailable that instantly...

                (again, all this is still somewhat moot if he were to lock the door and/or gradually depressurize with the 02 system deactivated.)

                My bottom line question is if 45K gives you some meaningful time advantage over high 30's/410/whatever- it can't bee too much but then again 5 sec vs. 1 sec (Or 15 sec vs. 5 sec...whatever) might be worth something to the bad guy...
                Why do people consistently keep giving credence to this absurd notion that MH370 ascended to FL450 or above for a given length of time? That is simply not possible. When the populist press erroneously seized upon notoriously spurious ground based military radar readings I knew at once that this thing was going to get out of control before the the truth had time to emerge. Any large transport aircraft (particularly wide body) carries a substantial fuel load. In the case of a 777, well over 150,000 lbs. and quite a bit more for a very long flight. It is elementary that altitude capability is generally quite restricted until such time that a large enough quantity of fuel has been burned sufficiently to allow climb to higher flight levels.

                I have no idea whether you fly or whether this forum is largely populated by enthusiasts, pilots, aviation aficionados or perhaps a combination of these. The quality of posts here is excellent and from the little I have read extremely measured and well informed - in addition to informing me greatly through the expertise shared...so apologies if this sounds remedial...but I feel necessary whilst this ludicrous fallacious suggestion endures. All aircraft need the wings to support the lift of the aircraft at any given weight. As you climb and the air thins, in order to support level flight, the velocity of the aircraft needs to increase to compensate for the physics of thin air. The problem is that our wings are not capable of unlimited airspeed and therefore, we have issues with weight vs speed vs altitude throughout the flight. As fuel burns of course, we are able to climb into thinner air without large increases is airspeed because the lift demands are lessened (lighter weight). For any pundit to sit straight faced on CNN or post on here for that matter and proclaim that this aircraft climbed to an altitude what, call it 8000ft beyond it's service ceiling? and 2,000 ft above its max cruise altitude EARLY (i.e. heavy) in the flight must be deluded or perhaps afflicted by hypoxia themselves. That is without mentioning the control issues of such a slim envelope. Also as many have pointed out - this supposed time advantage is entirely fallacious when you have a bullet proof door at your disposal. FL250 will do quite nicely.

                Two great articles from almost a month ago berating the sensationalist press which spawns such nonsense - and how poor journalism inevitably perpetrates and thrives upon Chinese whispers - (no pun intended).

                http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/media...ource=vicefbuk

                http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/how-d...ource=vicefbuk
                As the Crow flies

                "Buy the ticket, take the ride"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Crow
                  ...absurd...simply not possible...I knew at once...elementary...sounds remedial... ludicrous fallacious suggestion...deluded or perhaps afflicted by hypoxia themselves.... That is without mentioning the control issues of such a slim envelope....
                  Would you like to show me the weight of the aircraft and a performance chart- I'll be glad to look at that, but I do not need your adjectives to understand the effect of altitude on aircraft. I do believe the 777 is certified to 41,000 feet and that certification is not the absolute altitude limit of the aircraft. 757's hit 410 routinely and easily, and I can cite business jets certified to 51,000 feet.

                  Was the aircraft too heavy to reach 450?...it might have been but over the 60 pages of this thread I haven't seen any mention on the estimated weight and what was technically possible to go claiming that it's ludicrous, deluded and impossible.

                  I'd welcome the numbers. Keep the adjectives.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Crow View Post
                    Why do some people consistently keep giving credence to this absurd notion that MH370 ascended to FL450 or above for a given length of time?
                    Fixed

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      I do believe the 777 is certified to 43,100 feet
                      Fixed.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Crow View Post
                        Why do people consistently keep giving credence to this absurd notion that MH370 ascended to FL450 or above for a given length of time? That is simply not possible. When the populist press erroneously seized upon notoriously spurious ground based military radar readings I knew at once that this thing was going to get out of control before the the truth had time to emerge. Any large transport aircraft (particularly wide body) carries a substantial fuel load. In the case of a 777, well over 150,000 lbs. and quite a bit more for a very long flight. It is elementary that altitude capability is generally quite restricted until such time that a large enough quantity of fuel has been burned sufficiently to allow climb to higher flight levels.

                        I have no idea whether you fly or whether this forum is largely populated by enthusiasts, pilots, aviation aficionados or perhaps a combination of these. The quality of posts here is excellent and from the little I have read extremely measured and well informed - in addition to informing me greatly through the expertise shared...so apologies if this sounds remedial...but I feel necessary whilst this ludicrous fallacious suggestion endures. All aircraft need the wings to support the lift of the aircraft at any given weight. As you climb and the air thins, in order to support level flight, the velocity of the aircraft needs to increase to compensate for the physics of thin air. The problem is that our wings are not capable of unlimited airspeed and therefore, we have issues with weight vs speed vs altitude throughout the flight. As fuel burns of course, we are able to climb into thinner air without large increases is airspeed because the lift demands are lessened (lighter weight). For any pundit to sit straight faced on CNN or post on here for that matter and proclaim that this aircraft climbed to an altitude what, call it 8000ft beyond it's service ceiling? and 2,000 ft above its max cruise altitude EARLY (i.e. heavy) in the flight must be deluded or perhaps afflicted by hypoxia themselves. That is without mentioning the control issues of such a slim envelope. Also as many have pointed out - this supposed time advantage is entirely fallacious when you have a bullet proof door at your disposal. FL250 will do quite nicely.

                        Two great articles from almost a month ago berating the sensationalist press which spawns such nonsense - and how poor journalism inevitably perpetrates and thrives upon Chinese whispers - (no pun intended).

                        http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/media...ource=vicefbuk

                        http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/how-d...ource=vicefbuk
                        The feeling that you have when you hold your breath is not due to the lack of O2 but due to the excessive CO2 build up due to the lack of O2. Pilots flying unpressurized aircraft are required to use an oxygen supply above FL140. If the plane was at any altitude above FL140 and assuming it was slowly depressurized by the pilot, unconsciousness would ensue but it would take less time at higher altitudes. At what cabin altitude do the masks deploy and is it triggered simply by cabin altitude or by a sudden drop in cabin altitude? Is it possible that most of the passengers simply passed out and never knew what was happening before the masks dropped?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ptwtanks View Post
                          At what cabin altitude do the masks deploy and is it triggered simply by cabin altitude or by a sudden drop in cabin altitude?
                          At 14000ft, triggered by cabin altitude only. No matter if you reach there suddenly or very slowly. For example, leave by mistake the outflow valve open or the pressurization off, climb (the cabin will "climb" with the plane) and when the plane reaches 14000ft (and the cabin too) the masks will deploy. There is a warning before that, when the cabin reaches (I think) 10000ft, so if there is misconfiguration with the system the pilots can correct it and normalize the situation before the masks are deployed.

                          Is it possible that most of the passengers simply passed out and never knew what was happening before the masks dropped?
                          I think it's possible to disable (switch off) the emergency O2 system, so the masks will not deploy when the cabin altitude exceeds 14000ft.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • ok its a newb question...and i'm sorry but some of your postings are too technical for me.
                            if the cabin was depressurised at FL350 (i know what this means now...thanks)...masks come out....10-12 minutes of o2.......then sleep....how long to dead???
                            i read somewhere...that as the flight desceneds....o2 comes in....people come round......but thats probably not true for 6 hours at 35000ft right??? so he wouldnt need to climb to 45k??
                            or am i missing something??

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by andyb99 View Post
                              if the cabin was depressurised at FL350 (i know what this means now...thanks)...masks come out....10-12 minutes of o2.......then sleep....how long to dead???
                              No one knows this exactly.
                              Certain people, accustomed to altitude (e.g. Everest climbers), could most probably survive to the end, perhaps able to perform certain tasks.
                              Well, chances are there were no Everest climbers on that flight.
                              Most people would be unconscious within minutes.
                              I think there was a case of somebody "travelling" on a long haul flight in a gear compartment and arriving still (barely) alive.
                              so he wouldnt need to climb to 45k??
                              I guess he could stay at any FL that would maximize the range while minimizing the risk of being detected. Especially with the other pilot on the other seat in the cockpit (e.g. dead) and the reinforced door behind.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by andyb99 View Post
                                if the cabin was depressurised at FL350 (i know what this means now...thanks)...masks come out....10-12 minutes of o2.......then sleep....how long to dead???
                                Anything between a few minutes and never. But you don't need them "dead". A good coma is enough.

                                i read somewhere...that as the flight desceneds....o2 comes in....people come round......but thats probably not true for 6 hours at 35000ft right???
                                If anybody is not dead by then, chances are that they will be in a deep coma, and even if not, he/she will hardly be in any shape for quite some time to do anything beyond moaning.

                                As kris said, there had been cases (more than one) of people surviving a transatlantic jet flight hidden in the unpressurized wheel well, but the very few cases I've heard were in very bad shape and those who eventually recovered did that "eventually" and not before some time and treatment in intensive care.

                                so he wouldnt need to climb to 45k??
                                I agree.

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                                Comment

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