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Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

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  • #31
    Originally posted by zathras View Post
    AFAIK the airport near Smolensk, where the accident took place, is a small military airport and is not equipped with ILS. I suppose it's just because it's tactically insignificant (only one runway 1600 m long).
    Besides I'm not sure whether the Tu 154 was equipped to use ILS either...

    One more curious fact: a military transport that was originally due to land just before the polish plane has been rerouted to it's reserve airport due to weather.

    --
    Greetz.
    Zathras
    Correct. That's the information I have as well. The Smolensk airport is not equiped to modern civil standards. As for the presidential Tu-154M, not sure whether the upgrade included the installation of ILS equipment either.
    I still am trying to figure out whether the accident happened on the final approach or whether it was a runway overshoot. Anyone who has better/more information on this?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by ATFS_Crash
      Unfortunate tragedy. Condolences.

      Allegedly in fog; four blown approaches then a crash? Didn’t the aircraft and the airport have an ILS system? I don’t understand how a crash like this is very likely with modern equipment. With ILS you should be able to land in virtually blind conditions.

      A few questions I would like the investigation to answer: Were they trying to land without ILS, if so why would they land without ILS in fog? Did the pilot have much currency with ILS? Was the ILS functioning properly? Was the ILS jammed or somehow else tampered with (was this terrorism?)?

      Whether it be by aircraft or car; most accidents occur in close proximity of departure point or arrival point (home or destination). This often happens because of complacency/familiarity and because of anxiousness and because in a matter of speech the mind is switching gears.
      Its a TU so probably more then half the equipment on board was not working properly.Some ground those aircraft,they are 2 unsafe to fly!

      R.I.P. to everyone and the families.


      On MSN it said


      "The crash devastated the upper echelons of Poland's political and military establishments. On board were the army chief of staff, the navy chief commander, and heads of the air and land forces. Also killed were the national bank president, deputy foreign minister, army chaplain, head of the National Security Office, deputy parliament speaker, Olympic Committee head, civil rights commissioner and at least two presidential aides and three lawmakers, the Polish foreign ministry said."
      August 29th will be the worst day of the year.

      Comment


      • #33
        The Tu-154M which crashed here has an overall much higher level of reliability and other engines than the majority of Tu-154.

        Tu-154M
        Currently, the Tu-154M is the production standard which first flew in 1982. It uses more efficient Aviadvigatel D-30KU turbofans. It is far more economical, quiet, and reliable than previous versions. Aeroflot consistently achieves dispatch reliability above 99% with the Tu-154M, which compares favorably with current western airliners.
        This particular model had been completely overhauled in December 2009 and was being maintained carefully. Remember, it was a governmental plane.

        Let's see what the outcome of the investigations will bring. Besides of the Russian investigation, the Polish have indicated already to plan their own investigations.

        What I still do not understand is how so many high level ranked officials were allowed to fly on the same plane.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Geebee View Post
          The Tu-154M which crashed here has an overall much higher level of reliability and other engines than the majority of Tu-154.

          This particular model had been completely overhauled in December 2009 and was being maintained carefully. Remember, it was a governmental plane.
          While it's all true, we should also remember that this particular Tu had a history of malfunctions. So the other one in fleet. A couple of times they were both grounded at the same time forcing authorities to use other means of transport. AFAIK last malfunction happened when it carried rescue team to/from Haiti. The plane was grounded trough the night till the crew managed to fix whatever was wrong with it.
          On the other hand it seemed more reliable than the Jak 40. Damned thing almost caught fire after connecting APU on Brussels airport (IIRC) embarrassing both crew and engineers.

          Originally posted by Geebee View Post
          What I still do not understand is how so many high level ranked officials were allowed to fly on the same plane.
          The thing is that the other government Tu is currently under repair, the rest of the fleet consist of couple of Jak 40 (one of them was used to transport the press core, the other broke down) and 3 M28 Bryza (which is band new and IMHO awesome, but can carry only 19 passengers)... So as you see there was no real alternative. Except of course chartering a plane, but I think it was considered too expensive...

          --
          Greetz.
          Zathras

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Alessandro View Post
            Polish and Russians has their issues as we all know. Most people are not knowledge of aviation anyways, so inherit the B767s is the best option.
            A badly flown B767 that hits trees will crash just the same as a TU154 that is badly flown and hits trees !
            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

            Comment


            • #36
              I got this from Fox news, so please take it with a grain of salt:

              Air Force Gen. Alexander Alyoshin confirmed that the pilot disregarded instructions to fly to another airfield.
              "At a distance of 1.5 kilometers [0.9 miles] the air traffic control group discovered the crew had accelerated its downward descent and begun descending beneath its glide path," Alyoshin told Russian news agencies.
              "The head of the group ordered the crew to return to horizontal [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]flight[/COLOR], and when the crew did not fulfill the instruction, ordered them several times to land at another airport," Alyoshin said.[/COLOR]
              "Nonetheless the crew continued to descend. Unfortunately this ended tragically."
              He added that the pilot makes the final decision about whether to land.


              If this is true, I regard it as suspicious. In fact, I don't believe it. Why would a seasoned military pilot blatantly disregard instructions from the ATC? There must have been some type of mechanical issue that prevented a safe go around. Right?
              I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Myndee View Post

                If this is true, I regard it as suspicious. In fact, I don't believe it. Why would a seasoned military pilot blatantly disregard instructions from the ATC? There must have been some type of mechanical issue that prevented a safe go around. Right?
                I think the pilot was forced to land by the authorities on board. Remember that there was also air force chief commander present. You don't ignore orders from guy who can make you peel potatoes for the rest of your career. Also remember that going to other airport would mean that all aboard would skip the ceremony they were going to. My guess is that the president was so desperate to get on place on time that he forced the issue - either directly or via the AF commander. That wouldn't be the first time (vide the Tibilisi incident mentioned earlier). But that's only a hunch...

                --
                Greetz.
                Zathras

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by zathras View Post
                  I think the pilot was forced to land by the authorities on board. Remember that there was also air force chief commander present. You don't ignore orders from guy who can make you peel potatoes for the rest of your career. Also remember that going to other airport would mean that all aboard would skip the ceremony they were going to. My guess is that the president was so desperate to get on place on time that he forced the issue - either directly or via the AF commander. That wouldn't be the first time (vide the Tibilisi incident mentioned earlier). But that's only a hunch...
                  dutch media / news-website:

                  "De piloot en de Poolse president Lech Kaczynski hadden het dringende advies gekregen om te keren en te landen in de Wit-Russische stad Minsk, omdat het militaire vliegveld onvoldoende was uitgerust om vliegtuigen in dichte mist te ontvangen. Maar de piloot en het staatshoofd sloegen het advies in de wind."


                  translation:
                  "The Pilot and the polish president Lech Kaczynski had received the urgent advice to turn and land in the white-russian town Minsk because the military airport was insuffienctly equipped to receive aircraft in strong mist. But the pilot and the president rejected the advice."






                  "De Poolse piloot zou ondanks de waarschuwing vier keer hebben geprobeerd te landen. De luchtverkeersleiding heeft niet het recht de landing van een Pools presidentieel toestel te weigeren.
                  Een half uur eerder had een ervaren Russische piloot, die het gebied goed kent, nog rechtsomkeert gemaakt naar Moskou, nadat hij twee keer had geprobeerd te landen."


                  translation:
                  Despite the warning the the polish pilot is reported to have tried to land four times. The ATC doesn't have the right to refuse the landing of the polish presidential aircraft. Half an hour earlier an experienced russian pilot who knows the area well had turned around towards Moscow after having attempted to land twice.




                  "Een Poolse luchtvaartexpert merkte op dat het de Poolse piloot waarschijnlijk aan de nodige vasthoudendheid heeft ontbroken. Hij herinnerde aan een incident in de zomer van 2008. Toen had een piloot een bevel van de president naast zich neergelegd om in Georgië te landen.
                  Omdat hij het te gevaarlijk vond om daar te landen, landde hij in een buurland, waardoor Kaczynski met de auto naar Tbilisi moest. Het staatshoofd verweet de piloot later dat hij weigerde bevelen op te volgen."

                  translation:
                  A polish airtravel expert commented that the polish pilot probably missed the necessary strength of decision. He refered to an incident of summer of 2008 when a pilot had ignored an order of the president to land in Georgie. Because the pilot judged it to dangerous to land he diverted and landed in a neighbour country, so that afterwards Kaczynski had to be transported by car to Tbilsi. The president later criticised the pilot that he refuse to follow orders.


                  'production pressure' ...
                  ... sad for the victims!



                  but also a lot of other questions arise: why so many high rank persons on just one plane?!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by BoeingKing77 View Post
                    Its a TU so probably more then half the equipment on board was not working properly.Some ground those aircraft,they are 2 unsafe to fly! "
                    Your thinking is indeed closer to that of a Caveman than I would have believed possible for a human to display at this point in civilization. I hope you don't take on a career as an Aircraft Crash Investigator.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Alessandro View Post
                      Polish and Russians has their issues as we all know. Most people are not knowledge of aviation anyways, so inherit the B767s is the best option.
                      The 767's would need to be converted into VIP config which would presumably be quite expensive. They may also be bigger than what the President requires given the TU-154's have sufficed to now. And they're not exactly new or particularly cheap to operate. As Poland is an EU member I'd suggest an order for a couple of A320/321's might be appropriate.

                      But obviously if they're going to attempt landings in heavy fog at airports without ILS then the aircraft choice is irrelevant, they'd be better ordering Gliders that can crash more softly.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zathras View Post
                        I think the pilot was forced to land by the authorities on board. Remember that there was also air force chief commander present. You don't ignore orders from guy who can make you peel potatoes for the rest of your career. Also remember that going to other airport would mean that all aboard would skip the ceremony they were going to. My guess is that the president was so desperate to get on place on time that he forced the issue - either directly or via the AF commander. That wouldn't be the first time (vide the Tibilisi incident mentioned earlier). But that's only a hunch...

                        --
                        Greetz.
                        Zathras
                        How awful. I guess the passengers were getting impatient with the missed approaches. I can understand that the pilot may have been threatened by the Commander. I have never served in the military, but I suppose one must obey orders even if it means certain death. I guess Crew Resource Management doesn't exist in the military?
                        I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Despite the warning the the polish pilot is reported to have tried to land four times. The ATC doesn't have the right to refuse the landing of the polish presidential aircraft. Half an hour earlier an experienced russian pilot who knows the area well had turned around towards Moscow after having attempted to land twice.
                          Don't they have the option to close the airport, thereby forcing incoming flights to go elsewhere, even a presidential flight?
                          I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tsv View Post
                            Your thinking is indeed closer to that of a Caveman than I would have believed possible for a human to display at this point in civilization. I hope you don't take on a career as an Aircraft Crash Investigator.
                            Dude,do you know what the NATO name for this aircraft is?Careless.And its had 66 incidents and accidents. And do you see a patern in what planes are crashing??Over here:Occasional crashes.former soviet union:Almost always a Soviet aircraft,almost never a western aircraft.
                            August 29th will be the worst day of the year.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              One of the things that haven't been reported yet to the media at all and most likely won't be for few days out of respect is that the President and the Pilot already had a run in about the same thing last year. On Lech Kaczynski's trip the Pilot (Same PIC) diverted to a different airport due to weather which caused a huge delay in the Presidential visit along with the fact that the President and his entourage had to take buses to get there.

                              After that the Polish president reprimanded the Captain and tried to fire him from flying the plane because it caused an embarrassment. A lot of people stood behind the pilot and eventually he kept his job. Lech Kaczynski has been known to get into the cockpit and bark orders at the crew. Those that know him he not only was a stubborn man (God bless his soul though because thats no reason for someone to die) but also he had this Anti-Russian views (He was a historian and hated the russians and their history along with their crimes against poland in late 70's and 80's).

                              Point is now comes 2010. The President is flying to the Katyn memorial in Russia and once again we have bad weather. I'm pretty sure that the pilot who by the way was a veteran flyer and great aviator knew that this was not safe landing. The only questions is whether he chose to try several times out of pressure or was he ordered to do so by Lech Kaczynski. Everyone was waiting in Smolensk and there is no way in hell The President was going to divert. A lot of people speculate that it was on his order that crew does everything in their power to land and that is why they diregarded the control tower. From early reports based on communications it appears that after the tower told the Captain about diverting and told him not to land, he stated "Stand By". I'm curious to see what the black boxes will reveal went on in the cockpit and who ordered them to try.

                              Seeing as this involved high ranking officials including the President we might never get the truth. The Pilot might be blamed for this crash seeing as nobody would want to trample on the President's grave or worse. However this is not the first time the Pilot has been pressured to land and not the first time that this has happened. Some of the polish press reported this issue last year that went on between the pilot and the decision that he made. Which by the way at that time he did not even attempt to land the plane, he just diverted.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'm sure the media will have a field day blaming the pilots.

                                I have a hard time believing that any pilot would have independently made this decision. Some other factor is at work here.
                                I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

                                Comment

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