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777 Crash and Fire at SFO

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  • Originally posted by kris View Post
    Position of engine #2 would suggest it was operating with significant thrust - no fuel problems (at least with this engine)?
    ..........
    Looking at the positions of the two engines relative to the aircraft and runway, it might be that the engines broke away early the aircraft just happened to end up near one of them.

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    • Basic framework of crash per NTSB here:

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      • Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
        Looking at the positions of the two engines relative to the aircraft and runway, it might be that the engines broke away early the aircraft just happened to end up near one of them.
        But how the hell did the starboard engine end up in front of the starboard wing? We may never know, but I find that fascinating.

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        • CNN showed a video of the crash landing taken from the shore. The aircraft pivoted on its nose as it swung around with the aft end crashing to the ground. That impact could account for the flattened lower fuselage visible in the 5th photo on post 135.

          Perhaps that is when the two children were ejected from the aircraft. I wonder if they were in their seats during ejection.

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          • Those pilots should surrender their pilot's licenses and ASIANA airlines should be banned from flying into the United States. And their passports should be confiscated.
            A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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            • Originally posted by TheKiecker View Post
              Basic framework of crash per NTSB here:

              http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ntsb-...e-crash-glance
              The NTSB spokesperson also stated that, based on FDR info, that the aircraft speed was significantly lower than the target speed.

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              • Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
                The NTSB spokesperson also stated that, based on FDR info, that the aircraft speed was significantly lower than usual.
                — FOUR SECONDS OUT ... the stick shaker, a yolk the pilots hold, begins shaking, indicating the plane could stall.
                .

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                • Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                  But how the hell did the starboard engine end up in front of the starboard wing? We may never know, but I find that fascinating.
                  Deadstick one aspect to consider (merely conjecture, of course - and again I am no pilot or expert) is that the if the pilots realized about 4-7 seconds pre-impact that they were 'in a bad place' and applied TOGA power, then by the time of impact and aircraft 'sliding' on the ground the engines may have then been approaching very high thrust (from the TOGA power input ~10 seconds earlier) and thus the starboard engine may have had a fair amount of forward momentum potential even post separation.

                  Does that make any sense it's hard to describe what I mean to say.

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                  • I also find it befuddling in this day and age that airports dont have video cameras recording images/video say in 24H loops on the runways such technology is of nominal cost - and would provide a lot of information, and could be mounted on existing hardware (taxi lights, wind socks, beacons, etc). I mean good golly I have a $50 cam that records good live video of my pets that I can view from my cell phone in any starbucks.

                    That investigators routinely call for any eyewitness photos/videos is a bit mind boggling to me.

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                    • Originally posted by Gabriel Paraphrased
                      Four seconds out- stall warning.
                      Very simple...

                      Firewall the throttles.

                      If it's a light single, the reciprocating engine roars to life, speed builds and/or the lightly loaded wing quickly initiates a climb as long as the pilot is reasonably careful in his pull up...

                      If it's a turbojet, the engine sits there...lagging...slowly building turbine speed...
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                      • Originally posted by obmot View Post
                        Deadstick one aspect to consider (merely conjecture, of course - and again I am no pilot or expert) is that the if the pilots realized about 4-7 seconds pre-impact that they were 'in a bad place' and applied TOGA power, then by the time of impact and aircraft 'sliding' on the ground the engines may have then been approaching very high thrust (from the TOGA power input ~10 seconds earlier) and thus the starboard engine may have had a fair amount of forward momentum potential even post separation.

                        Does that make any sense it's hard to describe what I mean to say.
                        Absolutely it makes sense. Thanks for the response. I'm a glider pilot mainly and don't always grasp, particularly with big airplanes, all of the dynamics.

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                        • Originally posted by obmot View Post
                          Deadstick one aspect to consider (merely conjecture, of course - and again I am no pilot or expert) is that the if the pilots realized about 4-7 seconds pre-impact that they were 'in a bad place' and applied TOGA power, then by the time of impact and aircraft 'sliding' on the ground the engines may have then been approaching very high thrust (from the TOGA power input ~10 seconds earlier) and thus the starboard engine may have had a fair amount of forward momentum potential even post separation.

                          Does that make any sense it's hard to describe what I mean to say.
                          I think that the engine must have hit the ground immediately after being detached (if not before) and would have stopped producing thrust at that point (due to damage and deformation).

                          There are more plausible possibilities.
                          To begin with, the engine already is ahead of the wing (well, most of it anyway). Look at a top-down image of the plane.
                          Then, the engine, being small and heavy, makes for a much better ballistic object than a cartwheeling plane.
                          And, the engine could have less friction against the runway than the damaged airplane, and hence skid farther.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            I think that the engine must have hit the ground immediately after being detached (if not before) and would have stopped producing thrust at that point (due to damage and deformation).

                            There are more plausible possibilities.
                            To begin with, the engine already is ahead of the wing (well, most of it anyway). Look at a top-down image of the plane.
                            Then, the engine, being small and heavy, makes for a much better ballistic object than a cartwheeling plane.
                            And, the engine could have less friction against the runway than the damaged airplane, and hence skid farther.
                            But there was a lot of flipping and skipping going on Gabriel, yet the engine ended up just forward of the wing and next to the fuselage. (I believe this engine is what caused the fire.) So many complex dynamics. I hope it all gets clearly sorted out.

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                            • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              Very simple...

                              Firewall the throttles.

                              If it's a light single, the reciprocating engine roars to life, speed builds and/or the lightly loaded wing quickly initiates a climb as long as the pilot is reasonably careful in his pull up...

                              If it's a turbojet, the engine sits there...lagging...slowly building turbine speed...
                              Yes, this is one of the few cases where lowering the nose would not have helped a lot. Not this late anyway.

                              At this point I am wondering how they got to that point.
                              If they were manually flying, they would have needed to apply increasingly amounts of nose-up inputs and force or trim, something very hard to miss. Otherwise the speed would have not kept reducing.

                              While the 777 is FBW, it follows different laws than the Airbuses. The 777 has speed stability more or less replicating the natural response of a non-FBW airplane.

                              However, the 777 has envelope protections. The AP would not have reached to the point of stickshaker. And in manual flight when you get too close to the stall the force needed to keep increasing the AoA becomes disproportionally high (unlike a non FBW plane), so it becomes hard to stall it but the pilot keeps full authority to do it of they want to.

                              Also, the A/T would not have let the speed go this low. So it must have been off.

                              So I don't understand how they got to this point.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                              • Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                                But there was a lot of flipping and skipping going on Gabriel, yet the engine ended up just forward of the wing and next to the fuselage. (I believe this engine is what caused the fire.) So many complex dynamics. I hope it all gets clearly sorted out.
                                So... maybe it got close to the final position first and then it was dragged by the plane coming behind. Just speculating.

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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