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Australia, Indonesia and Malaysia to trial new method of tracking planes

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  • #16
    From the NY Times:

    ...in the wake of the Flight 370 disappearance, the airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations body, have agreed in principle on the need for all airliners to have the ability, by November 2016, to automatically report their position at least every 15 minutes, twice as often as the current average of around 30 minutes.Had those measures been in place before Flight 370 took off from Kuala Lumpur Airport, they may not have prevented the plane from crashing, but the plane would have most likely been found by now and the question of what happened put to rest.
    Again, I fail to understand how this would help. The 'ping' signals were from the SATCOM itself keeping a connection with the satellite. The positional reporting (ADS-B or ACARS) was shut down. Decreased positional reporting intervals would not have helped find the plane unless they somehow cause the 'ping' intervals to be more frequent, and, since those systems were shut down, how would they? The only thing that would have helped is if those SATCOM 'pings' were more frequent but I don't think that is what they are proposing.

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    • #17
      Maybe

      I do not know if I am a little bit simplistic here but what if:
      1. Extend current VCR and FDR battery lifetimes to more than the current 30 days (maybe 90 days or even 120 days)
      2. Extend current VCR and FDR record times to 12 hours
      3. Include in the VCR and FDR an “active” positioning tracking system that communicates each 15 minutes (just like the current smartphones have)
      It seems to me that such technologies are currently available at relative low cost.
      Just to clarify the items 1 and 2 specifically for MH 370: if found, the VCR and FDR will only show the last 2 hours of the flight. The events that originate MH 370īs course deviation started 6 hours earlier and will not be recorded, making more difficult to understand the process that originated its disappearance

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      • #18
        I think extending pinger battery life and record times makes sense, but I'm confused about #3.

        If you're talking about having the recorder (or some other system) *broadcast* the plane's position using technology similar to that in smartphones, the problem is the radio's range. Smartphones and other cell-technology devices only work within a short distance of a land-based access point. I don't know the exact number and it may vary by system, but it's probably somewhere around 10 miles. That would not work when you're over the ocean 500 miles from the nearest land!

        If you're talking about having the recorder *record* the plane's position, that of course would not solve the "MH370 problem" as the data would be stored on or near the aircraft and would be inaccessible until after the aircraft is located!

        I think the most sensible approach in some respects is what's probably been discussed here already, which is to have a system in the plane make regular automatic "position reports" via a satellite link. The cost to retrofit each plane could be very low - it's quite possible with many planes it could just be a software change.

        The problem is that if all of a sudden 1000's of airplanes come under this automated periodic reporting requirement, you're going to need more satellite bandwidth to handle the incoming data. In a practical sense that means more satellites... and satellites are not cheap!
        Be alert! America needs more lerts.

        Eric Law

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        • #19
          Yes Elaw

          I refer to a system that constantly refers the plane position to a satellite.
          What I suggest is that this system should be located inside the VCR and FDR and not in any other plane location for two reasons
          1. Theoretically, the system will be located in the less vulnerable part of the plane in case of crash
          2. The system will be independently powered from any other planes communication systems as currently VCR and FDR are, making it less vulnerable to any kind of interruption (intentionally or not)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Observer View Post
            Just to clarify the items 1 and 2 specifically for MH 370: if found, the VCR and FDR will only show the last 2 hours of the flight. The events that originate MH 370īs course deviation started 6 hours earlier and will not be recorded, making more difficult to understand the process that originated its disappearance
            It would still tell us a great deal. It would tell us if any parameters were abnormal, such as cabin altitude. It would confirm that no pilot inputs or signs of life were present in the cockpit. It would rule out any fire detection. It would tell us if fuel starvation was the cause of the actual crash. It could tell us a number of things to support the 'rogue pilot' theory.

            I'm also wondering if the ACARS event recording was still active and only the transmission aspect was disabled. Or if the ECAM messages are recorded somewhere and what additional data might be found on the QAR. If that data is found in the wreckage intact it could tell us a lot more than the FDR.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Observer View Post
              I do not know if I am a little bit simplistic here but what if:
              1. Extend current VCR and FDR battery lifetimes to more than the current 30 days (maybe 90 days or even 120 days)
              2. Extend current VCR and FDR record times to 12 hours
              3. Include in the VCR and FDR an “active” positioning tracking system that communicates each 15 minutes (just like the current smartphones have)
              It seems to me that such technologies are currently available at relative low cost.
              Just to clarify the items 1 and 2 specifically for MH 370: if found, the VCR and FDR will only show the last 2 hours of the flight. The events that originate MH 370īs course deviation started 6 hours earlier and will not be recorded, making more difficult to understand the process that originated its disappearance
              The CVR requirement is to record 30 minutes in multi-channel mode and 2 hours in single-channel mode (combining the different channels in a single sound track). Many modern CVR record 2 hours in multi-channel. But I agree, this will be not much help in MH and extending the CVR time to many more hours should be a piece of cake today (how many hours of high quality sound fit in a 64GB SD crard, even if you use 6 channels?)

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #22
                I do not know the answer to your question, Gabriel, but today, relative small devices at many homes are able record hours of image + sound in the satellite TV market.
                I donīt know neither the cost of tracking all planes by satellite. Maybe, in light of the MH370 case, if you consider the number of people lost (in my opinion difficult to put in financial figures) or the money spent until now in the search, it is cost-effective.
                The points I raise are the location of this system and its power supply.
                Why not include it as part of CVR and/or FDR system to better protect it from crashes or interruptions?

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                • #23
                  It might also make sense to have the FDR/CVR pinger go dark after 14 days with some reserve power and then reawaken 30 days later for 10 minutes or so when better search assets are in place and then repeat this once a month over a long period.

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                  • #24
                    This is only partially flippant - how about an iPhone is strapped onto to one of the engine generators in each aircraft, thus engine on = iphone on (can't be turned off unless engine is shut), and have said iPhone ping GPS coordinates with satellites every few minutes.

                    Even without any cell coverage (i.e., -not- using AGPS) my iPhone can tell me where I am give or take a few hundred yards, and my bill is just $36 clams a month.

                    Okay it doesn't have to be an iPhone of course, but my point is - why is tracking aircraft seemingly such a monumental Herculean task, when I've been able to 'track myself' for years for about a buck per day?

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                    • #25
                      The goal is not to be able to tell the airplane or its occupants where it is - commercial aircraft are already packed with technology that can do that.

                      The goal is to tell authorities 1000 miles away, where your plane was when it hit the water.

                      And no cellphone made can directly communicate with someone/something that's 1000 miles away.
                      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                      Eric Law

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Elaw of course, but a person sitting 1,000 miles away or 10,000 miles away can relatively easily (and very easily if implemented specifically for this purpose) view my iPhone GPS logs and locate the last place I was when my iPhone pinged GPS coordinates with the sats.

                        Now, lets say the simple iPhone type unit pings every 3-4 minutes, how far can a jet go in that amount of time ... 50-60 miles or so, at best, in any 1 direction?

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                        • #27
                          That wouldn't work.

                          GPS systems don't "ping" the satellites - a GPS receiver is just that, a receiver. It passively reads the signals from multiple satellites and uses them to determine its position.

                          So the only actual log kept is on the receiving device itself, and that gets you back to where we started, where the device is sitting somewhere on the bottom of the ocean!
                          Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                          Eric Law

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Ahh okay I guess 'Iphone only as GPS receiver" makes sense and wouldnt work for aircraft.

                            I assumed apparently incorrectly that the GPS sats had logs as well - but that they don't I guess explains why this is seemingly such a huge problem for tracking jets etc.

                            It just boggles my mind a bit, frankly, that we landed men on the moon almost 50 years ago yet we still can't track aircraft here on Earth lol.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by obmot View Post
                              Elaw of course, but a person sitting 1,000 miles away or 10,000 miles away can relatively easily (and very easily if implemented specifically for this purpose) view my iPhone GPS logs and locate the last place I was when my iPhone pinged GPS coordinates with the sats.
                              ONLY if your iPhone was connected to a cellphone network, something that will NOT happen in the Southern Indian Ocean or anywhere a miles from the coast (or even in many zones over land).

                              The GPS itself is a one-way system. The GPS receiver RECEIVES information from the GPS satellite constellation but never SENDS information to such satellites (which, by the way, are not designed to receive any signal from the GPS receivers). When your iPhone is tracked it's because it takes the GPS coordinates calculated from the thi information RECEIVED FROM THE GPS SATELLITES, and FORWARDS this info through the CELLPHONE NETWORK (or maybe wifi).

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                ONLY if your iPhone was connected to a cellphone network, something that will NOT happen in the Southern Indian Ocean or anywhere a miles from the coast (or even in many zones over land).

                                The GPS itself is a one-way system. The GPS receiver RECEIVES information from the GPS satellite constellation but never SENDS information to such satellites (which, by the way, are not designed to receive any signal from the GPS receivers). When your iPhone is tracked it's because it takes the GPS coordinates calculated from the thi information RECEIVED FROM THE GPS SATELLITES, and FORWARDS this info through the CELLPHONE NETWORK (or maybe wifi).
                                Actually Gabriel, my iPhone can show my location perfectly well (within I'd say 50-100 yards) with zero wifi, zero cellular network whatsoever (i.e. using GPS, **not** AGPS)

                                Anyway, Elaw cleared up my misunderstanding, thanks.

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