Tweet
Originally posted by Leftseat86
View Post
-
Well this is quite disturbing... It would appear that you hacked my webcam and made note of the view.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut. -
As Gabriel points out though Evan, that wouldn't have helped in this case, as FLCH NEVER commanded IDLE thrust.
The whole problem was that FLCH commanded a climb and increased thrust (evidence these guys were a long way behind the aircraft modes by the time they were on approach), and that the PIC overrode this and pulled the thrust levers to IDLE manually. When you override the A/T in FLCH, it 'gets the hint' and says 'I'll stay where you put me'. Which is essentially HOLD mode in a nutshell.
No, thats pretty much exactly what it does. You move the thrust levers and they stay where you put them. The key being that the A/T is still engaged, rather than having to disengage the A/T to achieve it. Its a very basic mode.I would have thought "thrust hold mode" would consist of putting the throttle levers in a particular position and leaving them there, but I get that it's a bit more complex than that.Comment
-
Yes, I know that. But, as you said, once you plant the thrust levers at IDLE they go into HOLD and stay there. I just think in that situation the FMA could remind you that the thrust is not only in HOLD but in HOLD at IDLE.Originally posted by MCM View Post
So if you drop through the GS and think, "hmmm... why am I not getting thrust", a quick glance at the FMA will tell you the story.
I know... better to stay on top of it. But these things keep happening...Comment
-
Surely an even quicker drop of the hand onto the thrust levers by the pilot flying would have told him the answer to that one....and that's where his hands should have been throughout the approach anyway from when power adjustments started to be made.Originally posted by Evan View Post
I refer you learned gentlemen back to the video "Children of the Magenta Line"If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
Comment
-
The most important part is that the pilot knows they are in HOLD, not that they are at the idle stop. You know that by the thrust lever position, or, more importantly, from the thrust indication.
It wouldn't matter if they were at IDLE, or 10% above idle, or 30% above, the point is that the HOLD means that the A/T isn't going to change the thrust. Hold works just fine as an annunciator. Pilots (INCLUDING these pilots) know full well what the mode is, what it means, and what it will do.
Their actions throughout the whole process showed panic, and uncertainty of what modes to use - not what those modes actually do.
The pilots knew full well that having the thrust levers in HOLD after overpowering them meant they wouldn't move from that position. They would have been able to recite that in a test. The fact that they had insufficient training in WHICH MODES TO USE in that scenario is the concern.
That said - I can see exactly what they were trying to do, and it wasn't, by its nature, wrong. The problem really came from the fact they left automated modes in far too long, and expected them to operate when they really shouldn't have. Disconnecting the Autopilot was the first sensible thing the pilot did - just that he should have taken the A/T too, as it was clear they didn't have full mode awareness. The Boeing training to keep the A/T in to landing for normal landings definitely is a consideration as to why they would default to that position - but it doesn't justify it.Comment
-
......and as the lecturer in the video says..."Autopilots don't understand the meaning of the term "and do it NOW"If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
Comment
-
I think you are wrong...Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
...because that sounds like one of those broadly-applicable fundamental-airmanship kinds of things.
Instead, they failed to stick to the specific rote memorization of the 47 autopilot modes and all the cryptic acronyms.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.Comment
-
From Brian:
Surely an even quicker drop of the hand onto the thrust levers by the pilot flying would have told him the answer to that one....and that's where his hands should have been throughout the approach anyway from when power adjustments started to be made.
How you think this is wrong in any way is beyond me. Even in a CAT3 approach and landing let alone a normal one, the pilot flying should have his hand on the thrust levers at all times!Originally posted by 3WE View PostComment
-
Fairly safe to say that 3WE has his tongue firmly planted in his cheek with his last comment.Comment
-
-
Slightly off topic, this looks like one for Season 15 or 16 of Mayday...Comment
-
C'mon, at your advanced age you should be able to tell it.Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
Paraphrasing:
"Put a hand on the thrust levers? That would be very obvious, of very basic airmanship and natural even for a pilot with 7.4hs TT, so it must be wrong. Important pilots flying important planes at an important airlines don't mess with these childish concepts like "how to fly an airplane" and, instead, memorize the concept of "how to manage a computer" ".
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---Comment
-
time to go back to blue text...Comment
-
You're exactly where I want you to be.Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostLes règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.Comment
-
If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
Comment
Comment