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LOT Polish Airlines flight LO 016 EWR-WAW Emergency Landing

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post


    PILOT ERROR!!!
    Really, I suspect a touch of sarcasm there , but how could this be pilot error? They had plenty of time to assess the situation and run every checklist and rap with the maintenance guys and study all the schematics. The situation must have been unsolvable in the air. My money is on two failures. One latent: a pre-existing electrical or mechanical failure of the alternate system, possible due to corrosion or abrasion of some wiring somewhere, and one occurring during the flight: the loss of the central hydraulic system. But I highly doubt it could have been solved by closing a breaker, as I'm sure they would check those when they were troubleshooting the issue. Breakers trip for a reason. They don't trip when a circuit is open and they can't be reset when a circuit is shorted. Put me down for previously undetected issue with the alternate gear system. And if I'm right, airworthiness directives all around.

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    • #77
      I did not get a sense of looking for hints? Fence sitting perhaps.

      I, am leaning towards Evan's direction since they had plenty of time to run the lists and get on "the horn" to the maintenance department. At least that is what they did in the movie Airport didn't they?
      Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Really, I suspect a touch of sarcasm there , but how could this be pilot error?
        That was the intention:

        "Hey, with an intact airplane to study and a well and alive crew to interview, why don't we have some preliminary info by now even if they are not done with the recorders yet? That would smell to pilot error, which of course can't be. Or can it?"

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          Any hint on what happened yet? (other that they landed with the gear up, please)
          c'mon...wait for the final report!
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            The situation must have been unsolvable in the air. My money is on two failures. One latent: a pre-existing electrical or mechanical failure of the alternate system, possible due to corrosion or abrasion of some wiring somewhere, and one occurring during the flight: the loss of the central hydraulic system. But I highly doubt it could have been solved by closing a breaker, as I'm sure they would check those when they were troubleshooting the issue. Breakers trip for a reason. They don't trip when a circuit is open and they can't be reset when a circuit is shorted.
            I suppose that is possible that the vibrations associated with a belly landing could have somehow undone the fault. Leading to a situation of the alternate gear extension functioning when the plane was jacked up and the breaker reset.

            Is it confirmed that this is how they got the gear down? Since there are presumably other ways mechanics can get the gear down on the ground, especially as they can get at parts of the plane inaccessible in flight.

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            • #81
              Capitan Wrona has returned flying with LOT PA after two weeks of the emergency landing he made without landing gears. Cap. Wrona was honored by passengers after take off and landing on his flight to NY. In NY he will be honored by the UN representative Ban Ki-moonem and he will be named the man of the year by Polonia.

              Information is from LOT's web site.



              So does this mean that the investigators looked in the black boxes and it showed that he did every thing by the books and really it was the equipment malfunction?

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              • #82
                Sto lat
                Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by mpe View Post
                  Is it confirmed that this is how they got the gear down?
                  It is now, but remember where you heard it first.

                  Accident: LOT B763 at Warsaw on Nov 1st 2011, forced gear up landing
                  By Simon Hradecky, created Thursday, Dec 1st 2011 11:44Z, last updated Thursday, Dec 1st 2011 11:54ZThe Polish Panstwowa Komisja Badania Wypadkow Lotniczych (Polish State Commission for Aircraft Accident Investigation, PKBWL) released their preliminary report reporting that the aircraft suffered a hydraulic leak shortly after takeoff from Newark's runway 04L, when the gear and flaps were retracted. The center hydraulic system's (System "C") pressure dropped as a result. Just after the flaps had fully retracted the crew received a low pressure message on the Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System (EICAS), the hydraulic quantity indication reduced from 105.1% to 10.6% in 2 minutes, the aircraft was climbing through 3850 feet MSL at that point. The crew actioned the relevant checklists and consulted with the airline's operations center resulting in the decision to continue the flight.

                  While on approach to Warsaw the crew performed the alternate gear extension procedure however the gear did not extend. While in a holding military aircraft were dispatched to visually check the aircraft and reported the gear was still in the up position. The crew attempted another gravity extension which still did not extend the gear.

                  About 72 minutes after aborting the first approach to Warsaw, in view of the failed attempts to lower the gear and the fuel reserves depleting the crew decided to commence a belly landing. After the aircraft came to a stop an evacuation commenced through all doors except for the right hand overwing exits, the evacuation was completed in about 90 seconds.

                  About 15-20 minutes after the end of the evacuation the first members of PKBWL arrived at the scene and found the "C829 BAT BUS DISTR" circuit breaker on the P6 panel was in the popped position, the "C4248 LANDING GEAR - ALTN EXT MOTOR" circuit breaker was in the closed position. The recordings of cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were secured.

                  Circuit breaker C829 protects a number of systems including the alternate landing gear extension system. It's position was not recorded or indicated by any aircraft system.

                  After the aircraft was lifted off the runway, the circuit breaker C829 was closed, then the alternate landing gear extension was activated and successfully extended the landing gear, so that the aircraft could be towed to the airline's maintenance hangar.

                  On Nov 2nd the location of the hydraulic leak was identified in a damaged hose belonging to the center hydraulic system. The hose was disassembled and sent to the NTSB for further analysis.

                  The captain held an ATPL and accumulated 15,980 hours total flying time (thereof 14,007 hours in command) and 13,307 hours on type. The first officer (ATPL) accumulated 9,431 hours total flying time, thereof 1,981 hours on type.
                  Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

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                  • #84
                    So if we assume no one in the cockpit intentionally pulled the breaker, something caused it to open. If the crew had found it open and attempted to reset it, it may have popped open again if there was something downline causing a problem. It'll be interesting to know.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                      So if we assume no one in the cockpit intentionally pulled the breaker, something caused it to open. If the crew had found it open and attempted to reset it, it may have popped open again if there was something downline causing a problem. It'll be interesting to know.
                      Moisture (since evaporated) could have produced a short. Checking the Newark weather for 11/1/11 there was no precipitation..

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                        So if we assume no one in the cockpit intentionally pulled the breaker, something caused it to open. If the crew had found it open and attempted to reset it, it may have popped open again if there was something downline causing a problem. It'll be interesting to know.
                        On the other hand, it did not pop again when the gear was eventaully exteded with the alternate system after the plane was put on jaks.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          On the other hand, it did not pop again when the gear was eventaully exteded with the alternate system after the plane was put on jaks.
                          Good point Gabriel. So why was the breaker open? I hope we find out.

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                          • #88
                            I wonder for how long was it open. Could it have bee open for example for several flights with that fact being not known or noted? In my Piper Tomahawk before start checklist there was an item to check all circuit breakers.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                            • #89
                              But wouldn't that be on a checklist for landing gear activation failure? Surely the pilots are trained to look for something like that. I remember that T-Hawk checklist from my student days.

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                              • #90
                                So the million dollar question is: when they were troubleshooting this in the air, why didn't someone think to check the breakers on the p6 panel? It only took them 15-20 mins to figure it out on the ground.

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