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777 Crash and Fire at SFO

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  • Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
    Looks like a wind shear effect, accident, just like Delta 191 in Dallas.

    CAVU winds l&v

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    • Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
      Those pilots should surrender their pilot's licenses and ASIANA airlines should be banned from flying into the United States. And their passports should be confiscated.
      Even more brilliant than your previous statement citing w/s as the cause. You should stick to your flight sim flying.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        Depends...

        And it doesn't neccesarily gaurantee you will get quality sleep, or be on your right circadian rythim nor not land at the end of 6 hours (you chose the number) of boredom in a cockpit staring into the sun and mentally fried.

        It DOES NOT DEPEND! There are strict rules that dictate how many flight crew will be aboard the a/c depending on the SCHEDULED flight time.

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        • The pilot flying Asiana Flight 214, which crashed in San Francisco, killing two and injuring scores more, had only 43 hours of experience flying Boeing 777 aircraft, a spokeswoman for Asiana Airlines said Sunday.


          So like it's been mentioned, the captain had limited hours flying the 777 and this was probably his first time flying into SFO with the 777. My questions is, why was he captain if he had such little time/experience with this aircraft? In the above article, it says the co-pilot had much more experience, shouldn't a captain have more experience than a co-pilot? Did he upgrade from another aircraft to the 777 directly as captain? This seems odd to me.

          I guess from everything that has been revealed so far it is looking like pilot error will be the cause of the crash, though until everything is revealed nothing is certain.

          -Rene

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          • Originally posted by renetrujillo View Post
            So like it's been mentioned, the captain had limited hours flying the 777 and this was probably his first time flying into SFO with the 777. My questions is, why was he captain if he had such little time/experience with this aircraft? In the above article, it says the co-pilot had much more experience, shouldn't a captain have more experience than a co-pilot? Did he upgrade from another aircraft to the 777 directly as captain? This seems odd to me.
            There are two typical ways to be upgraded to Captain of say a 777.
            - From co-pilot of the 777.
            - From Captain of a smaller plane, say a 767.

            They also said that this pilot, while little on the 777, had a lot of experience in other types. So maybe he was an experienced captain.

            The guy in the right seat must have been an instructor or equivalent.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              There are two typical ways to be upgraded to Captain of say a 777.
              - From co-pilot of the 777.
              - From Captain of a smaller plane, say a 767.

              They also said that this pilot, while little on the 777, had a lot of experience in other types. So maybe he was an experienced captain.

              The guy in the right seat must have been an instructor or equivalent.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                There are two typical ways to be upgraded to Captain of say a 777.
                - From co-pilot of the 777.
                - From Captain of a smaller plane, say a 767.

                They also said that this pilot, while little on the 777, had a lot of experience in other types. So maybe he was an experienced captain.

                The guy in the right seat must have been an instructor or equivalent.

                Where as I know (From previous discussions with you after the AF crash) you have experience, I seem to remember that it is all in light aircraft. In the 121 world the check airman does not always sit in the right seat. Sometimes he/she in in the observer seat behind the captain. This will all come out in the next couple of days I am sure.

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                • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                  Where as I know (From previous discussions with you after the AF crash) you have experience, I seem to remember that it is all in light aircraft.
                  As a pilot, you are correct. And not that much experience anyway. Some 180 hours TT, 95% of that daylight VFR (or under the hood) in the Tomahawk.

                  In the 121 world the check airman does not always sit in the right seat. Sometimes he/she in in the observer seat behind the captain.
                  I know. Actually, I think that in the TK accident it was like this.
                  Just that there was no mention of a third pilot, so I was too fast assuming there was not one. Also this part makes it look that way:
                  Lee, who started his career at Asiana as an intern in 1994, has 9,793 hours of flying experience, but only 43 hours with the Boeing 777 jet.

                  Co-pilot Lee Jeong-min, who has 3,220 hours of flying experience with the Boeing 777 and a total of 12,387 hours of flying experience, was helping Lee Kang-kook in the landing
                  Of course I can be wrong.

                  By the way, would you please explain in more detail how is the typical transition process of a pilot being upgraded to Captain in a type, be it from FO in the same type or Captain in another one?

                  By the way II, in a crew with a Captain in training, a regular FO and a check airman, who would be the PIC? (on one hand, it sounds it would be the check airman, especially if the Captain in training has never been a Captain before, on the other, a PIC without the power to call "my plane"?)

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • Tail probably hit the edge of the runway. this would explain the number of spinal injuries, as passengers in the back would take the full force of the impact. I think it was pure luck that the plane did not flip.

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                    • 1. Every accident like this one makes me think it is somewhat stupid to measure pilot experience in flying hours. I still remember my second flying instructor saying to me that one can learn more in a single hour of flight than in their hole (previous) career.

                      2. I do think that the old-fashioned analogue IAS gauge-type indicators with a needle are more easily interpreted than a partial-scale moving stripe drawn on the border of a computer displays regardless of its "add-on"s (additional stripes or/and colours to stress certain speed values, etc.)

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                      • I always wonder if a HUD would be helping is such situations.

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                        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          As a pilot, you are correct. And not that much experience anyway. Some 180 hours TT, 95% of that daylight VFR (or under the hood) in the Tomahawk.


                          I know. Actually, I think that in the TK accident it was like this.
                          Just that there was no mention of a third pilot, so I was too fast assuming there was not one. Also this part makes it look that way:
                          Of course I can be wrong.

                          On a flight scheduled for more than 8 hours there would be at least 3 pilots. I would bet this being a 10+ hour leg, plus OE in progress that there was 2 F/O's, the OE Captain and the check Captain

                          By the way, would you please explain in more detail how is the typical transition process of a pilot being upgraded to Captain in a type, be it from FO in the same type or Captain in another one?

                          Exactly as you said in your above post. Either as a senior F/O, or a Captain on a previous type.

                          By the way II, in a crew with a Captain in training, a regular FO and a check airman, who would be the PIC? (on one hand, it sounds it would be the check airman, especially if the Captain in training has never been a Captain before, on the other, a PIC without the power to call "my plane"?)
                          This depends on the company policy. At the company I fly for, 747 & 767 operations, the check airman would be in the right seat for takeoff and landing. And yes, in my opinion, the check airman should have assumed control when he saw the approach was not stable. From what I am reading on our company website, the glide slope was out on 28R and the VASI was inop on 28L. However in the 777 they should still have had a glide path built into the FMS. Why on earth the pilot flying was so determined to put the aircraft on the first foot of an 11000 plus foot runway in an airplane that would not be that heavy anyway after that long a flight is beyond me.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by renetrujillo View Post
                            http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...,7467256.story

                            So like it's been mentioned, the captain had limited hours flying the 777 and this was probably his first time flying into SFO with the 777. My questions is, why was he captain if he had such little time/experience with this aircraft? In the above article, it says the co-pilot had much more experience, shouldn't a captain have more experience than a co-pilot? Did he upgrade from another aircraft to the 777 directly as captain? This seems odd to me.

                            I guess from everything that has been revealed so far it is looking like pilot error will be the cause of the crash, though until everything is revealed nothing is certain.

                            -Rene
                            It just does not always work out that way. A "Co-Pilot" may have come from another carrier with plenty of experience, but was hired by this carrier after the Captain. When I hired on at my present job I was 47 years old with around 17000 hours. One of the Captains I was flying with had been hired 2 years before me, was 27 and had around 6000 hours. He not only was an exceptional pilot, but also a great guy to fly with. (By the way he is now a Southwest Captain)

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                            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              Well, now we know with almost certainty that pilot error was a critical link in the chain of event... but.

                              It's hard for me to justify that he was inexperienced in the 777.
                              I can see how this could be a factor. Certainly he had the universal competencies you mention, but I just wonder if this wasn't a case of inexperience on-type with a non-standard instrument approach using the unique automatics of the 777. I don't know much about them myself but if the crew were improvising the approach (having not briefed it) and were juggling modes or in SPD mode or VNAV SPD or VNAV PTH and were fast above the glidepath and the A/T mode went to IDLE and remained there—and the crew was distracted in their MCP antics from flying the plane—I can see this sort of thing happening.

                              Remember TK 1951 was also an improv act with a pilot in training,high and fast, where three pilots were all up in the MCP and not on the dials.

                              Also, AFAIK the 777 A/T is inhibited below 100' RA in certain modes, which may mean the A/T at IDLE all the way down to the stickshaker, but it seems a go-around was called for and pax report hearing the engines coming up...

                              I'm guessing that in any case extended idle thrust is major a causative factor here. The question in my mind is "why?"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post


                                Evan, weclome back!!

                                Where on Earth have you been????
                                Thank's Gabriel. I was down at the local puppymill getting my CPL so I could post here with authority. I am now a Captain flying for Colgan with 12hrs on the Q400. ; )


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