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New report warns of dangers of toxic fumes in plane cabins

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  • New report warns of dangers of toxic fumes in plane cabins



    A coroner has warned that toxic fumes in cabin air could pose a health risk to frequent fliers and aircrew.

    Stanhope Payne, the senior coroner for Dorset, has said that people regularly exposed to fumes circulating planes faced “consequential damage to their health”.

    Payne, inquiring into the death of Richard Westgate, a British Airways pilot, called on BA and the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to take “urgent action to prevent future deaths”.

    The urgency behind Payne’s call for action is likely to be welcomed by campaigners who have raised similar concerns for a number of years.
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Originally posted by orangehuggy
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  • #2

    Bologna! People looking to sue anyone and everyone they can for anything!

    Every senior pilot for every company would be affected if this were the case.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
      Every senior pilot for every company would be affected if this were the case.
      Except those who made most of their careers in bleedless planes like the 787

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

      Comment


      • #4
        On a serious note, why aren't the bleed air intakes upstream of all the potential sources of smoke and fumes?

        Or to say it in another way, what is the hard constraint that prevents engine designs to have all potential sources of smoke and fumes downstream of the bleed air intakes?

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          On a serious note, why aren't the bleed air intakes upstream of all the potential sources of smoke and fumes?

          Or to say it in another way, what is the hard constraint that prevents engine designs to have all potential sources of smoke and fumes downstream of the bleed air intakes?
          ???

          Ok, you sure as hell can't have your air intake downstream from the burner cans...so in a rare moment of 3BS black and white thinking, that would leave upstream from the burner cans, with the only possible sources of smoke and fumes being:

          A bearing somewhere upstream, or something sucked in from outside.

          What else does that leave but some sort of major failure that spits parts and fuel unintentionally upstream.

          On my recent trip I noted a nice half-burnt kerosene odor (probably not the best thing to breathe for long time periods, but it was while on the ground and maybe even came in via the cabin door...and a whif of deicing fluid.

          And in reference to other comments, Concur: I was thinking a bunch of germy people crammed in a tight space with re re re circulated, DRY air was indeed a great way to share pathogens.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            On a serious note, why aren't the bleed air intakes upstream of all the potential sources of smoke and fumes?

            Or to say it in another way, what is the hard constraint that prevents engine designs to have all potential sources of smoke and fumes downstream of the bleed air intakes?
            The culprit is often a leaking bearing seal. Engine lubricants contain traces of neurotoxins that can become aerosolized in the bleed system. The bleed intake must be sufficiently downstream to provide heated air. Also, in the event of an engine surge, there is some reverse flow of combustion fumes in the engine.

            I have taken to carrying a disposable P-95 particulate mask with me in my carry-on in case this ever happens. It's not 100% protection but it's better than nothing.

            Comment


            • #7
              Stanhope Payne, the senior coroner for Dorset, has said that people regularly exposed to fumes circulating planes faced “consequential damage to their health”.
              "people regularly exposed to fumes circulating planes"? Sounds like Mr. Payne has maybe been exposed to some fumes...
              Be alert! America needs more lerts.

              Eric Law

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                The culprit is often a leaking bearing seal. Engine lubricants contain traces of neurotoxins that can become aerosolized in the bleed system. The bleed intake must be sufficiently downstream to provide heated air. Also, in the event of an engine surge, there is some reverse flow of combustion fumes in the engine.
                Sorry, I'm not buying it.

                The bearings in turbine engines are fed with pressurized oil from a pump, which flows through the bearings and runs out via various chambers and passages to a sump, where a scavenge pump carries the oil back to the storage tank. The bodies of the bearings are thus at the same pressure as the aforementioned chambers and passages, and that whole system is vented to atmosphere. In other words, the bearings run more or less at ambient pressure.

                The compressor of course, with one exception, runs at higher than ambient pressure. How high depends on what stage you're talking about, but even at the 1st stage outlet the pressure will be 1/2 PSI or more above ambient. So if there was any leakage between the compressor and the bearings, air would be forced into the bearing space, not the opposite.

                The one exception is at or before the compressor intake. At that point, the air pressure is at ambient - although technically during flight the diffusing effect of the engine cowling will cause the pressure at the compressor inlet to be above ambient. But there are no modern engines with bearings located at or forward of the compressor inlet, so that's pretty much irrelevant.

                Now under certain specific conditions, it is possible for pressurized oil from the lubrication system to enter the compressor. But that's considered a failure and is very rare... it's not a constant occurrence as the "toxic fumes" people imply.

                I'll concede that in the event of a surge, combustion products could make it out with the bleed air, but that's also a very rare momentary occurrence. Someone concerned about that level of exposure would spend their time much better worrying about inhaling exhaust from other aircraft while at the gate and taxiing.

                And if you don't believe me, how about the UK's House of Lords Science and Technology committee (among other groups)? They researched this a few years ago and found that claims of health effects were completely unsubstantiated (http://www.publications.parliament.u.../121/12107.htm).
                Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                Eric Law

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  And in reference to other comments, Concur: I was thinking a bunch of germy people crammed in a tight space with re re re circulated, DRY air was indeed a great way to share pathogens.
                  In fact, the air in the airplane is quite safe from that POV.
                  Every time the air is recirculated it goes through a combination of screen and electrostatic filters that are excellent stopping particulated matter: they don't let even virus through.

                  Now, some things like VOCs and some toxins (that are just one molecule large, unlike a virus that is many order of magnitude bigger) can't be filtered out except by chemical filters like activated carbon, which are very expensive and last very little time.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Cabin air on Boeing aircraft:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      Except those who made most of their careers in bleedless planes like the 787


                      Oh yea Gabe, They have been around for the last 40 years right?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        ???


                        On my recent trip I noted a nice half-burnt kerosene odor (probably not the best thing to breathe for long time periods, but it was while on the ground and maybe even came in via the cabin door...and a whif of deicing fluid.
                        You think just maybe after the push back that the starts were done with the aircraft's tail into the wind? You will smell it EVERY time!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
                          cuz a manufacturer would never admit or even bother to discuss the fact that noxious substances are being introduced into the cabin...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                            You think just maybe after the push back that the starts were done with the aircraft's tail into the wind? You will smell it EVERY time!
                            Of course...or maybe the plane UPWIND is spooling up...

                            ...fact is, it's all over the airport, and a beautiful smell in my opinion.

                            Of course, lock lab rats in it 24/7 and you probably discover something bad...not that mother nature doesn't make it's own boat load of some first class nasty stuff.

                            The other thing that no one thinks about is gasoline fumes when you fuel your car, or that cleaning products under your sink can be as toxic as anything else.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              one of the problems is trusting "industry" to be the guardians of our collective well being. literally countless times "industry" has shown itself to be far more interested in $$$$ than safety. how many toxic dumps were SAFE according to the dumpers? how many drugs were SAFE until they killed 10's or 100's? how many cars were just fine and SAFE until it was proven that they were in some way dangerous?

                              then there is this incestuous relationship between regulatory bodies and "industry." i was listening to someone talk about "negotiated rule-making" procedures, wherein the regulators by law allow the regulated to object to proposed rules and actually have them changed to suit their desires. are you serious? that's as good as allowing drug dealers to negotiate with lawmakers on the legality of drugs.

                              in the legal/real estate realm, i witness this constantly where developers negotiate with government bodies regarding changes to zoning laws, height limits, densities etc etc. invariably, the government fools give in and the rest of the people who perhaps bought expensive property based on the LAW that no high-rises would be built in the area, are just screwed. yes, this is not safety related but it indicative of how we have allowed the very protections we created to be eroded to a point where they are almost worthless.

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