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  • #31
    You know what? This thread should have been closed after the first reply yo got:

    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Both.
    Or, even better, after the second reply:

    Originally posted by TheKiecker View Post
    Sucks.

    Take it to ThreadDisaster.com
    Please remind me not to answer the next time you ask something.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      EC, you are right:

      - Flight control computers have no clue of what a plane is or what control input will be needed to achieve a target, and instead play with the controls by successive approximations of trial and error until the find the combination that makes the variables meet the target.
      FBW works much the same way the human brain does with muscular coordination. It first creates an 'image' of the expected result of a control input, then it compares that image with the actual result and adjusts accordingly until the cycle of action and feedback achieves the desired result. How this initial image is used to calculate initial input is unclear to me but I assume it uses all available data on CoG and weight/balance in addition to configuration, air data and inertial guidance. But I don't know this for a fact...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        FBW works mush the same way the human brain does with muscular coordination. It first creates an 'image' of the expected result of a control input, then it compares that image with the actual result and adjusts accordingly until the cycle of action and feedback achieves the desired result. How this initial image is used to calculate initial input is unclear to me but I assume it uses all available data on CoG and weight/balance in addition to configuration, air data and inertial guidance. But I don't know this for a fact...
        Hey, Evan, just in case: That's exactly what I've been saying.
        The last post that you quoted from me I was being grossly sarcastic.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

        Comment


        • #34
          Have airline pilots ever spent years in prison due to a failure of automation. Drivers have. I mean, at least, I know the sad story of ONE driver who did?

          http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/conv...rison-11340294

          So I'm certainly not turning MY driving over to automation when car makers are still prone to lie about the bullet proof quality of their programs.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
            Have airline pilots ever spent years in prison due to a failure of automation. Drivers have. I mean, at least, I know the sad story of ONE driver who did?

            http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/conv...rison-11340294

            So I'm certainly not turning MY driving over to automation when car makers are still prone to lie about the bullet proof quality of their programs.
            That case had absolutely NOTHING to do with an automated driving vehicle of the type that we have been talking about. It was a Toyota Camry that had known faults in the mechanical part of the throttle pedal sticking. The remaining part was an electronic throttle linkage. Electronic throttle linkages are virtually standard in the auto industry now so EconomyClass, you'd best stop driving right now if you don't want to hand your driving over to automation.

            Toyota recalled more than 10 million vehicles for problems related to unintended acceleration in 2009 and 2010, starting with a September 2009 announcement that it was recalling 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles because of a defect that may cause floor mats to jam accelerator pedals. The company later recalled vehicles over defects involving the pedals themselves.

            The recalls set off a flurry of lawsuits claiming defects harmed the value of Toyota vehicles or caused accidents leading to death and injury. Toyota settled suits claiming economic loss for about $1.6 billion.
            Last edited by brianw999; 2014-07-09, 20:20.
            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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            • #36
              I think the point he is making Brian is that the car industry, if they find a defect, may not immediately be forthcoming with such information. In the end Toyota's hand was forced, but after how long?

              No different to Rolls Royce and the QF32 - Rolls Royce new about the defect, but chose not to tell anyone about it, and we all know how that ended up. RR made a risk assessment based on their risk profile, but prevented airlines from doing the same.

              Who's to say that a car manufacturer wouldn't do the same? Its a valid concern.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by MCM View Post
                I think the point he is making Brian is that the car industry, if they find a defect, may not immediately be forthcoming with such information. In the end Toyota's hand was forced, but after how long?

                No different to Rolls Royce and the QF32 - Rolls Royce new about the defect, but chose not to tell anyone about it, and we all know how that ended up. RR made a risk assessment based on their risk profile, but prevented airlines from doing the same.

                Who's to say that a car manufacturer wouldn't do the same? Its a valid concern.
                A more valid concern, as long as we're this far off topic, is that car manufacturers are held to a far lower standard than aircraft manufacturers, so the non-conformity of the part on QF32 would probably be par for the course on a mass-produced automobile. With that in mind, anything approaching autodrive capability in automotive design is insane.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by MCM View Post
                  I think the point he is making Brian is that the car industry, if they find a defect, may not immediately be forthcoming with such information. In the end Toyota's hand was forced, but after how long?
                  Does anyone here remember the Ford Pinto "exploding gas tank" fiasco from the 1970's?

                  It came out during an investigation that management was fully aware there was a problem, and had made an executive decision that it would be cheaper to pay off on a few lawsuits than to correct the problem.

                  http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1971-1...rd-pinto12.htm
                  Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                  Eric Law

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                  • #39
                    However, on October 24, 2013, a jury ruled against Toyota and found that unintended acceleration could have been caused due to deficiencies in the Electronic Throttle Control System (ETCS). Michael Barr of the Barr Group testified that NASA had not been able to complete its examination of Toyota's ETCS and that Toyota did not follow best practices for real time life critical software, and that a single bit flip which can be caused by cosmic rays could cause unintended acceleration. As well, the run-time stack of the real-time operating system was not large enough and that it was possible for the stack to grow large enough to overwrite data that could cause unintended acceleration.[30][31] As a result Toyota has entered into settlement talks with its plaintiffs.[32]
                    Given that the topic has veered like a crazy out of control car off the highway, I'm ditching it. Gabriel made a little analogy that I tried to respond to, and that somehow got people all shook up about automotive computers. Moderator can close the thread if he chooses
                    to.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                      Given that the topic has veered like a crazy out of control car off the highway, I'm ditching it.".............. Moderator can close the thread if he chooses
                      to.
                      That would be a rather presumptious approach by the moderator.......especially when you consider that that's me !

                      Although it outwardly seems that we've gone off topic I don't think it's done so dramatically.

                      The aviation industry flies millions of people every year but the automotive industry supplies vehicles that billions of people travel in every day of every year. The degree of safety applied to aviation far exceeds the degree of safety applied by the automotive industry so this thread is actually going a long way to proving the point that aviation is actually very safe compared to other means of transport.
                      I well remember the old transverse engined Austin/Morris 1800/2200 affectionately known as the "Landcrab" for it's desperately awful handling. The mechanical fuel pump was fitted on the front of the engine with the outlet to the carburettor going up over the top of the engine. This meant that that fuel line would rupture in any half decent shunt causing petrol to pump out into the engine bay. British Motor Company (BMC) knew of this potentially fatal problem but did nothing about it. In those days it was referred to as "a known fault" and you just got on with it.
                      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                      • #41
                        Certainly going off topic now....but this is pretty impressive....

                        Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
                        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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