Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

JetBlue 1416

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Like St. Elmos' Fire? An intelligent little spark that can withstand the pressure in the line, find its way past the pack valves, the hot air valves, the trim valves, the packs themselves, the mixing manifold...

    A real threat. Best to let the passengers choke.
    ????

    All that stuff you describe apparently doesn't work on smoke all that well...and the difference between smoke and fire can be a fine line.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

    Comment


    • #17
      You guy's are funny! St. Elmo's Fire!!!!!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
        You guy's are funny! St. Elmo's Fire!!!!!
        I never really got the movie, but have heard that the display from an 'electrified' airplane can be interesting.

        Not sure what the relevance is here though.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          I never really got the movie, but have heard that the display from an 'electrified' airplane can be interesting.

          Not sure what the relevance is here though.
          Relevance is my point! And yes we get it on almost every flight that is flying through light precipitation or clouds for an extended period of time. No big deal and sometimes quite entertaining.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            ????

            All that stuff you describe apparently doesn't work on smoke all that well...and the difference between smoke and fire can be a fine line.
            Yes, the fine line is called combustion, and sustained combustion requires a flash point threshold and a certain fuel to oxidizer mix. What you don't understand is that there is no simple 'pipe' leading from the bleed air valves to the cabin. Bleed air coming off the engine is over 200°C. Before it gets to the cabin it must be mixed with fresh air in a manifold (or cooled in the A/C packs). Smoke, as aerosolized particulate matter can propagate through the system by pressure but burning jet fuel would be extinguished by the cooler air. Unless the cabin temperature is set above 150°...

            To get the idea, try blowing on a match.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              To get the idea, try blowing on a match.
              You know, I'm thinking of all the cold air shooting by when an F-15 turns on it's afterburner, or how my car sucks cold air down little pipes and mixes this and that when I first start it on a cold morning, or when my lawnmower backfires...

              Sure, it depends on a lot of stuff, But your match analogy just doesn't work very well for me when I'm for me when you have vaporized hydrocarbons and warm air being blown all over creation from a system that's having a nasty breakdown...

              The Hindenburg was designed to not blow up too...
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                You know, I'm thinking of all the cold air shooting by when an F-15 turns on it's afterburner, or how my car sucks cold air down little pipes and mixes this and that when I first start it on a cold morning, or when my lawnmower backfires...

                Sure, it depends on a lot of stuff, But your match analogy just doesn't work very well for me when I'm for me when you have vaporized hydrocarbons and warm air being blown all over creation from a system that's having a nasty breakdown...
                Forget my match analogy. Just read the rest of what I wrote.

                There's a great scene in Das Boot where the chief mechanic, Johann, is seen opening what are essentially bleed-air valves on the diesel combustion chambers to check them. When he opens a valve, a flame shoots out upon cylinder combustion, about 6-8 inches. Beyond that point it tapers off because it cannot sustain combustion in the cooler air away from the source of ignition. Unlike gasoline, which has a very low flash point, diesel and jet fuel flash above 100°F.

                On a cold morning your car needs a thermostat-driven choke to limit the dense cold air in the mixture for combustion to occur. When your lawnmower backfires it might produce a momentary flame; it does not light the lawn on fire. You can throw a match into a drum of jetfuel and it will simply go out. Combustion is a difficult thing, especially for kersosene. It requires a magic proportion of oxidant and fuel at the right temperature. That simply cannot exist beyond the mixing stages of the bleed air system.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Let's K.I.S.S.

                  In the history of aviation, has an engine fire propagated into the fuselage via the bleed-air ducting, ever?

                  If the answer to that question is "no" (as I think it is, at least I have never heard of such a thing), then I am happy enough with that. While it doesn't prove that it's impossible, it will prove that it's amazingly unlikely to the point that it did not happen even once after gazillions of flights so far.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    ...There's a great scene in Das Boot...
                    Thank you Gabriel- your comment is what I'd call "strong evidence" that a fire probably won't propagate down a typical airliner air system.

                    Evan, umm... dude, this snip is the epitome of your overall, extremely weak attempt to suggest that flammable gas-air mixtures won't ignite very easily when you mix them with cool air. Are you durnk?

                    To contrast your make-believe Hollywood movie, I clearly remember a demonstration in a mechanics class where a diesel fuel pump and injectors were set up, outside of an engine in cool air...

                    ...the injectors squirted atomized fuel into candle flames.

                    The fireballs were quite impressive and pretty much matched the aerosol cloud when the candles were not lit. I.E. it wasn't the cold air that killed the fire, it was fuel exhaustion.

                    ...and to think, I though you were being sarcastic when you brought up that movie where they hack into the ILS computer and lower it by 200 feet and the pilots dutifully fly it right into the ground in relatively visual conditions.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      Evan, umm... dude, this snip is the epitome of your overall, extremely weak attempt to suggest that flammable gas-air mixtures won't ignite very easily when you mix them with cool air. Are you durnk?

                      To contrast your make-believe Hollywood movie, I clearly remember a demonstration in a mechanics class where a diesel fuel pump and injectors were set up, outside of an engine in cool air...

                      ...the injectors squirted atomized fuel into candle flames.
                      Ahh, sorry! I didn't realize that you were suggesting that there would be a convenient SOURCE OF IGNITION already waiting in the bleed air system when the fuel mixture was injected into it. In that case the flame might make it a few more feet down the pipe before it met with the fresh air mix and extinguished.

                      FAA: we've got to eliminate all those sources of ignition within the bleed air system.

                      Good work, 3WE.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Thank you Gabriel- your comment is what I'd call "strong evidence" that a fire probably won't propagate down a typical airliner air system.
                        Well, I really don't expect to see many (many=1) surprisingly new kind of accident in an airplane design from the 60's with engine designs from the 70's.

                        A new avionics system that goes awry? Maybe. A new kind of battery that catches fire? Sure. A very old engine that gets on fire and that fire propagates into the fuselage through a very old bleed air system? I doubt it.

                        Call me "bayessian" if you will.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Article about debris that almost hit some lady + a bunch of cabin pics.

                          The hatch appears to have burn/smoke marks on it.

                          California woman Cindy Gilbert was riding through Huntington Beach last Thursday when a metal guard - purportedly from JetBlue flight 1416 - 'literally fell from the sky' just a few feet from where she was riding.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X