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  • Landing Accidents

    Just learned something I found impressive. Out of all the ways that a plane can crash (can't even start to guess what the number is), half of all accidents happen while landing the plane. Should I be white-knuckled then and relaxed the rest of the flight?

    Niki plans on ramping up its expansion plans following the bankruptcy of SkyEurope Airlines and Austrian Airlines' network reduction, with President Niki Lauda telling ATWOnline, "We will increase our fleet from the current 12 to 16 aircraft next year." The LCC will add a third daily Vienna-Frankfurt frequency in November and a third daily frequency to Paris Charles de Gaulle by summer 2010. New daily flights from VIE to Bucharest Otopeni, Sofia and Belgrade will start next February and capacity on existing routes will be increased by adding larger aircraft.


    Wondering why highly-skilled pilots find that tricky. Is it maybe that that's when flight management systems help them the least?

  • #2
    Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
    Just learned something I found impressive. Out of all the ways that a plane can crash (can't even start to guess what the number is), half of all accidents happen while landing the plane. Should I be white-knuckled then and relaxed the rest of the flight?

    Niki plans on ramping up its expansion plans following the bankruptcy of SkyEurope Airlines and Austrian Airlines' network reduction, with President Niki Lauda telling ATWOnline, "We will increase our fleet from the current 12 to 16 aircraft next year." The LCC will add a third daily Vienna-Frankfurt frequency in November and a third daily frequency to Paris Charles de Gaulle by summer 2010. New daily flights from VIE to Bucharest Otopeni, Sofia and Belgrade will start next February and capacity on existing routes will be increased by adding larger aircraft.


    Wondering why highly-skilled pilots find that tricky. Is it maybe that that's when flight management systems help them the least?

    On landing a plane is in a very low energy state (in some ways you could liken it to riding a bicycle - the slower you go the more difficult it is to remain upright) - it is essentially transitioning from flying to 'driving'. To do so you need to slow to the point where the wings no longer support the aircraft and it needs wheels. Ideally, this happens on or in very close proximity to the runway. When a plane is travelling that slowly before landing the wings are only developing just enough lift to keep the plane in the air. A sudden change in wind direction and speed can remove some of that lift. Not really that much of an issue if you were at 20,000 feet, but in landing you may have noticed that the ground gets very very close (kinda part of the whole landing thing), take away a whole stack of lift due to a microburst when you are close to the ground and very slow and you end up dropping short of the runway as a DC10 did in the 1980's. At 20,000 feet you have altitude and airspace to recover.

    At 20,000feet at normal cruising speeds if you need to avoid something you have all options available to you: up - because you can trade airspeed for altitude very easily, down - because you have space below you, and left or right are self explanatory. When landing you do not have the altitude to avoid by going under, you do not have the airspeed to climb a great deal, and a sharp turn left or right may result in stalling a wing. A modern jet engine will need a few seconds to spool up and develop full power to gain you that airspeed to give you the airspeed to manouvre.

    When landing an aircraft needs to touch down on a tiny strip of concrete - if there is fog, cloud, rain or crosswinds that becomes so much more difficult. At 20,000ft these same conditions are not anywhere near as dangerous.

    Here is something else to consider:

    * A320 FLEET HITS OVER 50 MILLION CYCLES: Airbus has announced that the global fleet of A320 Family narrowbody aircraft has exceeded 50 million flight cycles since the first aircraft entered service in 1988.fficeffice" />>>
    “One of our A320 Family aircraft takes off every six seconds somewhere around the world and they have carried more than five billion people, which is a huge achievement,” said John Leahy, Airbus chief operating officer – customers. “We are investing at least €100 million a year in the A320 Family in order to maintain it as the world’s most modern and fuel efficient aircraft family that will continue to bring people together for the decades to come.”>>
    More than 4300 A320 Family aircraft have been delivered, with the type’s backlog stretching past 2000. Airbus is currently examining a new engine option for the A320, ahead of a likely replacement during the mid 2020s.

    50 million cycles = 50 million times an Airbus A320 family aircraft has taken off and landed. Not sure how many airframes have been lost through crashes but even with landing being the most hazardous phase of flight the odds are still miniscule.
    Last edited by SYDCBRWOD; 2010-07-15, 04:44. Reason: Removed duplicated pece of text. Better proof reading required before posting.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
      Just learned something I found impressive. Out of all the ways that a plane can crash (can't even start to guess what the number is), half of all accidents happen while landing the plane. Should I be white-knuckled then and relaxed the rest of the flight?
      You should notice that half of the accidents don't happen during landing and be white-knuckled accordingly.

      Remember the China Airlines flight that blew up at the gate?

      You can never relax until you accept the risks involved.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        You should notice that half of the accidents don't happen during landing and be white-knuckled accordingly. (...) You can never relax until you accept the risks involved.
        Very good point, Evan... And I think people who are afraid to fly shouldn't turn to these forums for help... or bash the whole industry when there is an accident.

        I really wonder if people are as critical on car-spotting websites (if there even is such a thing)... hehehe...

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        • #5
          And what percentage of them is blowing up at the gate? .00000000001? Let's focus on the 50 percent. That's where we're all MOST likely to die if we do (and don't start in on traffic accidents. Been driving since 1961, never got even close to a fatal crash. My safety record eclipses every airline in the world).

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          • #6
            Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
            And what percentage of them is blowing up at the gate? .00000000001? Let's focus on the 50 percent.
            50% of very little is very little. And yet, efforts are being made to reduce the number of landing accidents.

            That's where we're all MOST likely to die if we do
            Not sure about that. Maybe 50% of the accidents happen at landing (I'm not sure of that either), but the fatality rate in landing accidents is by far less than in other accidents (most are overruns with noone or veryfew killed). I don't have the numbers, but intuitivelly I feel that quite more than 50% of the deaths doesn't happen in landing accidents.

            (and don't start in on traffic accidents). Been driving since 1961, never got even close to a fatal crash. My safety record eclipses every airline in the world).
            Well, I'm quite sure that most of the transport category pilots have never had one single accident, let alone a fatal one, and even when they have flown much more miles that what you've driven.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #7
              Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
              And what percentage of them is blowing up at the gate? .00000000001? Let's focus on the 50 percent.
              Ok, which 50% do you want to focus on?

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              • #8
                I think probably close to 100 percent of LIVING PILOTS didn't have a fatal accident. Seems like a needless statistic to mention.

                But getting back to the original question (which has been lost in the meandering discussion), why do pilots fail so much more consistently to escape landing problems than any other?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                  But getting back to the original question (which has been lost in the meandering discussion), why do pilots fail so much more consistently to escape landing problems than any other?
                  Because they have less resources to deal with the problem than in other situations (resources = speed, altitude, power and time)

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • #10
                    why do pilots fail so much more consistently to escape landing problems than any other?
                    Because it is by far the most critical phase where safety buffers are necessarily nearer to their minimums.

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                    • #11
                      Somewhere I read even big planes can coast into an airport. Not true? Of course, if the weather is less than ideal, you wouldn't want a glider pilot. And with the ferocious level of commercial air traffic today, the law of averages assures many will land in suboptimal weather. Which might mean a traveler should be concerned about what weather his plane will have for the landing. Was that a factor in the Colgan crash?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                        Which might mean a traveler should be concerned about what weather his plane will have for the landing.
                        Hmmmmmm, EC, you need to remember that it is YOUR choice to fly. If you don't like the chances that the aviation community offers you, then why do you want to fly at all? Nobody is forcing you on a plane

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                          Somewhere I read even big planes can coast into an airport. Not true? Of course, if the weather is less than ideal, you wouldn't want a glider pilot. And with the ferocious level of commercial air traffic today, the law of averages assures many will land in suboptimal weather. Which might mean a traveler should be concerned about what weather his plane will have for the landing. Was that a factor in the Colgan crash?
                          A modern airliner can glide quite a distance 50-75+ miles from cruising altitude. I don't understand your point? "Should I be white-knuckled then and relaxed the rest of the flight?" If your plane were to crash upon landing chances are you wouldn't realize it was going to crash until after it impacted the ground if it was CFIT so you would die peacefully and rather quickly at that or asphixiate rather rapidly and wouldn't suffer but a couple of minutes assuming you were not knocked out upon impact. Really if your gonna die I think a guy like you would want 2 die while landing with no clue and in a state of ignorant bliss.
                          It would be much worse to die in an accident from cruising altitude or takeoff I would think. Especially takeoff, you climb to 3,000 feet then a bang. Now the planes bucking all around. YOu don't have the options you have from 27,000 feet. Your low, slow and have no energy. You as a passenger will deff know something is wrong. You'll have a good minute or two of sheer terror followed by darkness or if you survive the impact you will choke to death before you will burn. Now that would be a crappy way 2 go, where as landing is most likely just ignorant bliss, like a heart attack in your sleep.
                          Then again if you are really and truely this afraid of death then you aren't living life and are just dead inside anyway. Unless it's all just an internet charade...

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                          • #14
                            And I thought I was a fearful flyer. Shit dude, have a couple of scotches and chill out.

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                            • #15
                              Is there ONE mature person who posts here?

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