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SR111, ten years ago

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Arrow View Post
    Not sure. Certainly not unknown to start a season off with an eye-catching topic. Having watched it, the gist seems to be twofold:

    a) The feeling by an RCMP investigator (Tom Juby) that the TSB was hasty in framing the crash as an accident (10 days after the incident IIRC) and that that directed the frame of the investigation instead of keeping a more wide-ranging view of circumstances.

    and

    b) Discovery of magnesium levels in a sample of melted copper from near the fire site that aren't explained.

    Make of it what you will, I didn't find it to be the most compelling episode of "The Fifth Estate" I've ever seen relying as it does on the evidence provided by two individuals who may or may not have an axe to grind. The amount of water under the bridge also doesn't help.
    or... you could focus on the established evidence... an power-hungry, heat-generating, non-standard entertainment system not installed correctly by non-certified personnel... using the wrong type of wiring... and connecting it to the essential systems bus... and the use of flammable insulation materials, as opposed to smoldering ones, which, for god knows what reason, were still being used at that point. The thing is, there really was a conspiracy behind this, but it was being conspired between Las Vegas opportunists and FAA inspectors, and I guess they didn't see enough TV entertainment value in that story.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      As I watch this- it's interesting with a couple of valid questions regarding Mg and that the fire appeared to burn more than it should have.

      BUT, I also see that these questions would beg other questions, some of which are easy to ask.

      -Any evidence of more Mg at the "starting point"?
      -Any communication from FA's that suggests strange behavior?
      -If it was a device- where would it have been planted?
      -Any evidence of a device BESIDES Mg- wouldn't there be more than JUST Mg?
      -A genuine motive? (Lots of weak innuendo- but no meat)

      If it's criminal activity- get some answers to these (and other) easy-to-ask questions!

      I also see a possibility that some of these official doubters might be "legitimately over the top/not quite as objective as they should be"-just a human nature gut feeling, based on how they are acting.

      By the way, planes don't do very well with fire. Air Florida had the hot O2 generators, but TWA 800, an MD-80-smoking in the lavatory, 737 on takeoff roll- these planes burned plenty well after being ignited.
      The most important thing is, were the murders smart enough to set all this up but stupid enough to nearly fail?

      I mean, set the "devide" to be triggered at the middle of the Atlantic ocean, far away from landing spots.

      This plane could have very likely been saved had the pilots been focused on landing it ASAP instead of circling to dump fuel and other distractions.

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        The most important thing is, were the murders smart enough to set all this up but stupid enough to nearly fail?

        I mean, set the "devide" to be triggered at the middle of the Atlantic ocean, far away from landing spots.

        This plane could have very likely been saved had the pilots been focused on landing it ASAP instead of circling to dump fuel and other distractions.
        ...Yep
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          The most important thing is, were the murders smart enough to set all this up but stupid enough to nearly fail?

          I mean, set the "devide" to be triggered at the middle of the Atlantic ocean, far away from landing spots.

          This plane could have very likely been saved had the pilots been focused on landing it ASAP instead of circling to dump fuel and other distractions.
          When the pilots realized the situation was dire, they had asked ATC for immediate approach vectors, but the controller missed the communication and continued to direct them out for fuel dump. That might also have been a deciding factor. I've read that the propagation of the fire was probably too fast even if they had begun their approach however. I don't think this was a case of pilot or controller error, but rather an entirely preventable accident due to non-standard and unsafe design, and a textbook failure to regulate.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            ...but the controller missed the communication and continued to direct them out for fuel dump.
            Wrong. (OK, context is important- Evan is disputing Gabriel's suggestion that maybe the plane should have landed "immediately")

            Please do some additional reading regarding PIC versus ATC authority and what you are allowed to do in an emergency scenario.

            Mull it over for a few days, and let us know what you find out.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              ...I've read that the propagation of the fire was probably too fast even if they had begun their approach however...
              So, how long did they stay airborne, in communication with ATC and how far did they fly to find a "safe" area to dump fuel versus how long it might have taken to land "immediately"?
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                So, how long did they stay airborne, in communication with ATC and how far did they fly to find a "safe" area to dump fuel versus how long it might have taken to land "immediately"?
                I have the report somewhere, but I haven't read it in years. They initially considered it a routine cabin smoke issue and were intending to divert to Logan, so there was no concern about landing immediately. Then, when the situation became suddenly recognized as dire and they began losing displays, it was probably too late to make any airport even if they had begun the approach immediately. But, as I said, I'm not certain about that.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  or... you could focus on the established evidence...
                  As I recall, no possible alternative explanation was posited as to why the more-than-expected reading of Magnesium, just that based on one test it was there. It was an attention getter sure but it didn't answer the question cui bono; who benefits?

                  I thought the subtext of my comments was fairly clear. Perhaps not. For clarity's sake, I find "The Fifth Estate" episode lacking in detail to provide the hypothesis meaning and nothing to gainsay the TSB's findings.

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                  • #24
                    There were a few significant delay factors.

                    They issued a "pan pan" and not a mayday

                    They were at altitude and you just don't point the nose at the ground.
                    Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by guamainiac View Post
                      They were at altitude and you just don't point the nose at the ground.
                      Well, actually, you sort of do point the nose at the ground. (Reducing power and using spoilers does help with that, though)

                      I think depressurization descent procedures can get you from FL30-something to 10,000 in a couple of minutes.

                      You are correct that you don't "just" point the nose at the ground, but I think they can achieve some damn good descent rates, as opposed to flying pretty far away from the airport to dump fuel.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                      • #26
                        Peggy's Cove, which I've had the pleasure of seeing, is reputedly one of the most beautiful places in the world. Apparently some of the relatives who came overseas after the crash were so taken by the beauty and serenity of the location that they felt a spiritual connection with their loved ones and actually moved there.

                        Fire on board, get the aircraft down as quickly as possible - one of several lessons revisited. RIP.

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