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Recent Icelandic Volcanic Eruption Shuts down UK Airspace

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  • #76
    It's all very well sending up an empty aeroplane to go from London to Ireland and back to Cardiff (where they have a nice big maintenance base) just to see what happens, but that's hardly a fair test. You're airborne for what, 90mins max? Always in fairly easy reach of a landing strip and, let's face, no other traffic in the sky! It's quite another thing to be at significant altitude, mid Atlantic, heading east, with the whole of the "big cloud" ahead of you. I'm not saying that the aeroplanes should remain on the ground forever, of course not, but I agree with what was said earlier - let's not get lulled into a false sense of security. For example, what if the damage is cumulative? A quick hop out to Ireland and (half way) back shows nothing. Great! But suppose they'd been "in the cloud" for significantly longer? Or done it again and again and again. Ask yourself "would I want my wife and children on that aircraft, in that area, after say 20 sorties into it?" I don't think I would!
    Yet another AD.com convert!

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    • #77
      Some years ago, we received some Metro III from Barbados, and the engines were completely damaged due to the ashes from the only active volcano in the Caribbean, located in the island of Montserrat. So, if you are not careful the ash will get into the engine (after several flights) and damage not only the disks, but the oil pumps and bleed valves.
      A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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      • #78
        Here is a link to the satellite picture from NASA of the ash cloud over Europe.
        climate change, global climate change, global warming, natural hazards, Earth, environment, remote sensing, atmosphere, land processes, oceans, volcanoes, land cover, Earth science data, NASA, environmental processes, Blue Marble, global maps
        A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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        • #79
          Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
          Here is a link to the satellite picture from NASA of the ash cloud over Europe.
          http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/ima...010106_lrg.jpg
          Here is the same picture at a lower resolution picture but with legends:
          A tan plume of ash arced across northern Europe on April 16, 2010, when this true-color image was acquired.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by ATFS_Crash


            While the terminology is not entirely wrong, it's not what I would expect. What do you think the reaction would be if I called a jet engine mounted on a nacelle an "outboard motor"?
            Pretty common here...
            -Not an Airbus or Boeing guy here.
            -20 year veteran on the USN Lockheed P-3 Orion.

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            • #81
              Huge over reaction

              Thats what it looks like to me. If the density of the cloud is so low you can't actually see it.... and the particles are so light they don't fall to earth.... It's no worse than Sahara sand which regularly invades our airspace and doesn't cause a complete Eurozone shutdown. This is health and safety gone mad! Military jets regularly fly through sand in the middle east and although some light damage is done to the turbine blades, this is nothing out of the ordinary. The incidents being quoted in the press refer to flights (BA 747 in 1982) that flew through very high density clouds that would have been been visible.

              Eurozone control get your act together ans stop being over over cautious about a threat that is literally non existent!
              Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms

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              • #82
                Over-reaction?

                Originally posted by yeti View Post
                Thats what it looks like to me. If the density of the cloud is so low you can't actually see it.... and the particles are so light they don't fall to earth.... It's no worse than Sahara sand which regularly invades our airspace and doesn't cause a complete Eurozone shutdown. This is health and safety gone mad! Military jets regularly fly through sand in the middle east and although some light damage is done to the turbine blades, this is nothing out of the ordinary. The incidents being quoted in the press refer to flights (BA 747 in 1982) that flew through very high density clouds that would have been been visible.

                Eurozone control get your act together ans stop being over over cautious about a threat that is literally non existent!
                As other's have said, I'm not so sure that this is as much of an over reaction as you make out. Note:

                • The BA 747 that lost all four engines did not know until afterwards why it had happened. This stuff is not necessarily visible, and it's not detectable on weather radar.
                • Volcanic dust is not Sahara sand. Volcanic dust is a uniquely abrasive, even as a fine dust.
                • Military jets flying in Sahara sand do so generally away from populated areas, without passengers, and with emergency ejection facilities and training.
                • Don't forget the unknown factor of cumulative damage that has already been raised... what happens when a jet goes down next year and it's found that the turbines were damaged by repeated flights through this cloud?

                I'm not saying that a complete ban is maybe still required, but I would say caution is better than bravado. Especially at this time for the industry.

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                • #83
                  Why are we listening to the airlines on this issue? How scientific are these tests?

                  The issue is engine design vulnerability.

                  I assume the engine manufacturers are involved in testing the effects of volcanic dust in their own testing facilities. The engineers should know what the engines are capable of, and what will damage them.

                  Until GE, RR, CFM an P&W issue a statement assuring us that their products are safe to operate in the current atmospheric environment over northern Europe, no one should be allowed to operate there.

                  Let's not forget that the airlines conducting these 'tests' are economically biased to the extreme. Let's also not forget that they are not in the business of designing and certifying aircraft engines.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    Why are we listening to the airlines on this issue?
                    Outstanding! [sarcasm]Why would anyone suspect that the airlines want to fly?[/sarcasm]

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Why are we listening to the airlines on this issue? How scientific are these tests?

                      The issue is engine design vulnerability.
                      + possible sensor equipment vulnerability - maybe we should ask Thales again about their pitot devices...


                      m.

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                      • #86
                        NATO: F-16 fighters damaged by volcanic ash


                        BRUSSELS — A senior Western diplomat says several NATO F-16 fighters suffered engine damage after flying through the volcanic ash cloud covering large parts of Europe.
                        The official declined to provide more details on the military flights, except to say that glasslike deposits were found inside the planes' engines after they patroled over European airspace.
                        Last week, two Finnish Air Force F-18 fighter-bombers suffered similar damage while flying through the ash plume that has paralyzed air traffic over much of Europe. Both landed safely, but their jet engines will require expensive overhauls.
                        Volcanic ash tends to stick to a jet engine's interior parts, such as the turbines, where it melts to form a glassy coating. This restricts air flow and heats up the engine, leading to engine failure.
                        AP

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                        • #87
                          On Friday afternoon a BA 744 took off from SFO for LHR...it came back around midnight and is now sitting idle on the ramp with several other European planes. Whoops.
                          sigpic
                          http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=170

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Spectator View Post
                            As other's have said, I'm not so sure that this is as much of an over reaction as you make out. Note:

                            • The BA 747 that lost all four engines did not know until afterwards why it had happened. This stuff is not necessarily visible, and it's not detectable on weather radar.
                            • Volcanic dust is not Sahara sand. Volcanic dust is a uniquely abrasive, even as a fine dust.
                            • Military jets flying in Sahara sand do so generally away from populated areas, without passengers, and with emergency ejection facilities and training.
                            • Don't forget the unknown factor of cumulative damage that has already been raised... what happens when a jet goes down next year and it's found that the turbines were damaged by repeated flights through this cloud?
                            I'm not saying that a complete ban is maybe still required, but I would say caution is better than bravado. Especially at this time for the industry.
                            The ash cloud was not visible to the 747 crew because the incident occurred at night....

                            Your correct in stating ash is different from sand and is far more abrasive, however an increase in servicing intervals for the duration of the eruption would negate this and be far less expensive than grounding all flights. Modern NDT techniques could be used to spot turbine and internal damage quite easily.

                            Civilian jets also fly in sandy conditions without problems, I was referring to military jets as I have first hand experience of these and the damage sand can cause to the engines. Cumulative turbine "damage" was monitored using NDT and turbines blended or changed more frequently than was normal.

                            Some types of weather radar CAN spot volcanic dust and have been used to track ash clouds from previous eruptions. ATC could divert aircraft around particularly dense areas of ash.

                            I can find no reports of serious aircraft incidents involving low levels of volcanic ash, all serious incidents reported have been a result of aircraft flying directly into daylight visible dense ash clouds that caused significant structural damage to the airframe and engines. Most reported incidents were due to aircraft flying at night, outside of the range of modern ground based weather radar.
                            Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by yeti View Post
                              The ash cloud was not visible to the 747 crew because the incident occurred at night....
                              Clouds are normally visible at night, too. Even in a very dark & moonless night one would notice the absence of stars in a direction where the weather radar shows nothing but clear sky.

                              That is, unless the volcanic cloud is intermixed with normal clouds, then of course you don't see anything.

                              What do you make of the damage found in military aircraft?

                              m.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                Why are we listening to the airlines on this issue? How scientific are these tests?

                                .
                                Fox news would be a far better source of information and test parameters than the airlines..... "some people say, that planes are dangerous (especially European ones) and that if you fly too close to a volcano, your wings will melt"
                                Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms

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