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Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Myndee View Post
    I guess Crew Resource Management doesn't exist in the military?
    afaik CRM comes from the military.

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    • #47
      Just to comment on my post above. Few things were wrong and want to clarify the previous issue between the Pilot and Polish President.

      It was actually in August of 2008 on a trip to Georgia the pilot refused to land in Tbilisi and diverted to Gandja instead because of bad conditions. The Polish President got so mad because he ordered the pilot to land in Tbilisi no matter what. It almost ruined his career. Bogdan Klich - Polish Minister of Defense intervened on behalf of the pilot and saved his career.

      Once again this might come out as Pilot error, but if your commander in chief gives direct order and you already had a run in 2 years ago and almost costed you a career, yes..you would try to land as well.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by MarcinL7788 View Post
        One of the things that haven't been reported yet to the media at all and most likely won't be for few days out of respect is that the President and the Pilot already had a run in about the same thing last year. On Lech Kaczynski's trip the Pilot (Same PIC) diverted to a different airport due to weather which caused a huge delay in the Presidential visit along with the fact that the President and his entourage had to take buses to get there.
        Can anyone confirm this?! [same PIC]


        Originally posted by MarcinL7788 View Post
        After that the Polish president reprimanded the Captain and tried to fire him from flying the plane because it caused an embarrassment. A lot of people stood behind the pilot and eventually he kept his job. Lech Kaczynski has been known to get into the cockpit and bark orders at the crew.
        Shocking!


        Originally posted by MarcinL7788 View Post
        Point is now comes 2010. The President is flying to the Katyn memorial in Russia and once again we have bad weather. I'm pretty sure that the pilot who by the way was a veteran flyer and great aviator knew that this was not safe landing. The only questions is whether he chose to try several times out of pressure or was he ordered to do so by Lech Kaczynski. Everyone was waiting in Smolensk and there is no way in hell The President was going to divert. A lot of people speculate that it was on his order that crew does everything in their power to land and that is why they diregarded the control tower. From early reports based on communications it appears that after the tower told the Captain about diverting and told him not to land, he stated "Stand By". I'm curious to see what the black boxes will reveal went on in the cockpit and who ordered them to try.
        If we'll get to hear/see the black boxes content...


        Originally posted by MarcinL7788 View Post
        Seeing as this involved high ranking officials including the President we might never get the truth. The Pilot might be blamed for this crash seeing as nobody would want to trample on the President's grave or worse. However this is not the first time the Pilot has been pressured to land and not the first time that this has happened. Some of the polish press reported this issue last year that went on between the pilot and the decision that he made. Which by the way at that time he did not even attempt to land the plane, he just diverted.
        Perhaps the whole investigation should be done by neither Polish nor Russian investigator but by investigators from a different country (ie. New Zealand, better not the USofA).


        Sad sad sad ...

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by zathras View Post
          I think the pilot was forced to land by the authorities on board. Remember that there was also air force chief commander present. You don't ignore orders from guy who can make you peel potatoes for the rest of your career. (...)
          You mean General Andrzej Blasik?
          At the first grade - a pilot - was sent to 8 Regiment Fighter-Bomber in Mirosławiec. In 1987 he was transferred to 40 Regiment Fighter-Bomber in Świdwin, where he was a senior pilot, commander of a key officer of the squadron navigator, squadron commander and deputy commander of the squadron. Since 1995, he served in the Air Force Command Szefostwie Air Force and Air Defence [2] in Warsaw. He was successively chief inspector duties Navigation Division, Senior Inspector Department of Training and Operations Branch chief specialist.
          In 2001 he became Head of Training 2 Tactical Air Brigade in Poznan, and in 2002 became commander of the 31st Air Base in Poznań. He commanded a military unit in 2003 received the "Mark of Honour of the Polish Armed Forces" for the protection of international maneuvers in "NATO Air Meet 2003". Since 2004, he was head of the Combat Applications Division at Headquarters Air Force, while in 2005-2007 he commanded the 2nd Tactical Air Brigade. On August 15, 2005 he was promoted to Brigadier General. After a short time, he served as commander-rector of the School Officers of the Air Force. On April 19, 2007 he was appointed commander of the Air Force and was promoted to Major General.
          On August 15, 2007 he was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant General.
          As a pilot he had 1,300 hours total flying time. As an instructor had the power to train in all weather conditions on airplanes Su-22 and PZL TS-11 Iskra. He also piloted the Lim-6.
          You think he would have gone up front and tell the pilots to bust the minimas? I doubt it, but then again, I'm just speculating.

          Comment


          • #50
            Accident and its aftermath, a chronology

            According to TVN24, all the post-tragedy events took place in the following order:[16]
            • 05:23 UTC – aircraft takes off from Warsaw;
            • 06:56 UTC – plane crashes;
            • before 07:00 UTC – first unofficial information;
            • 07:26 UTC – Ministry of Foreign Affairs informs about the accident;
            • 07:36 UTC – Rescue crew extinguishes the fire and starts to pull out the victims off the aircraft;
            • 07:41 UTC – Russian Ministry informs that 87 people died in the crash;
            • 07:49 UTC – Polish Government Information Centre informs that Prime Minister Donald Tusk is on his way from Gdańsk to Warsaw;
            • 07:54 UTC – Smolensk District Governor informs that nobody survived the accident;
            • 08:08 UTC – Ministry of Foreign Affairs PR officer informs that most likely nobody survived the accident;
            • 08:15 UTC – President of Russian Federation Dmitry Medvedev calls up a special committee supervised by Vladimir Putin to investigate the reasons of tragedy;
            • 08:25 UTC – Bronisław Komorowski, Speaker of The House arrives in Warsaw;
            • 08:36 UTC – PR officer of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs informs that presumably Lech Kaczyński and his wife have died in the accident;
            • 08:41 UTC – Russian Investigation Committee informs that Polish aircraft contained 96 people;
            • 08:55 UTC – Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirms that nobody has survived;
            • 09:06 UTC – Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs officially confirms that all people in the aircraft have died.

            Putin and Medvedev promised Tusk they would work closely with Poland in investigating the crash. Initial signs pointed to an accident, possibly due to the fog that is very common in the area in spring and fall, as well as pilot error.
            Both black boxes have been found. Preliminary data indicated that the plane hit the treetops as it was making the approach to the airport in poor visibility, the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Marina Gridneva, an official with the Russian general prosecutor's office, as saying.[17]

            Comment


            • #51
              Peter K - Yes. Kaczynski has been known to interfere with crew decisions in the past! If he ordered them to land at all costs then that is what they tried to do.

              And actually I was once again wrong in previous posts. This was not the same pilot that Kaczynski tried to get rid of in 2008 for diverting. That pilot although stayed in the Air Force, no longer flew for the President since he diverted and refused to land in Tbsilsi, Georgia in 2008 due to weather conditions.

              Verified on Wikipedia.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Alessandro View Post
                I flew it myself on the Warszaw-Moscow leg during summer 2004.
                you didn't have co-pilot?

                leo

                Comment


                • #53
                  MarcinL7788 please , stop forum spam. Why you write lies in all air forums ? Why you today make acc in more air forums ? This guy , its no jet , air expert. Its only anti-president fraction representative. Agresive spam its popular in this political fraction.

                  In Georgia air incident , its only small problem president vs captain.

                  In Georgia incident fly captain , PŁK Tomasz Pietrzak.

                  Today in crash fly , captain Arkadiusz Protasik - this pilot flew with the president several times. Its very good Polish president friend. There would be no pressure on the pilot.

                  You have no respect for the victims. You are using this tragedy to their political games. You do this on many forums. Sorry everyone, but due to the memory of the dead I could not just leave. Sorry also for my poor English.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    If we'll get to hear/see the black boxes content...
                    If there is something to hide, we may never know. It could be convenient to just blame the pilot and move on...
                    I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      A very sad topic. As we have to say now, all 89 passengers on board this Tupolev Tu-154M and also all 7 crew members lost their lifes.
                      It is a Polish tragedy, Poland has lost humans that have been active in Polish history until this saturday. Not only President Lech Kaczynski and his wife died, but also the leading General in General Staff and many members of the President staff. May all humans on board this flight find their peace, and may the surviving families, brothers, children find again their strength.

                      Sometimes you wonder why death happens. And those who survive may wonder how could we avoid disasters like this.

                      If technical failure occurred, there would be a simple answer. But as there is no aircraft issue reported, I compare the Tu-154 to a B757. I don't know much about Tu-154s, so I tried to gather some facts, both the Tu-154s and B757s weigh clearly more than 200,000 lbs in the moment of t/o, both are clearly longer than 45 metres.
                      You can ask a simulator if Smolensk air base is perfect for B757-landings with zero visibility. Only one runway (2500 m), no ILS, so I have one or two questions:
                      If the Tu-154-captain loves the lifes of his passengers, including himself, (as imho a pilot always is a passenger of himself), how on earth is he able to find a rather short runway in zero visibility without a good glideslope?
                      Why did he even try that?
                      How can your career (pilot?) be important, when your life (no longer pilot) is abolished by the combination of tires on trees?
                      Should a pilot save the lifes of his passengers, although some passengers don't see the good will?
                      Is it good if a co-driver grasps the steering wheel?
                      The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                      The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                      And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                      This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Olii,

                        First of all I'm not trying to politicize the forum at all. It is a very sad day for the country to lose it's head of state or any passengers or citizens for that fact. Second you state that I lie on all air forums and spam them, yet you state that I don't post anything.

                        Now as far as 2 different captains go, I already explained in my previous post and clarified that my original post stated that it was the same pilot. In-fact it was not and I clarified that with the second post.

                        As far as the situation in the cockpit my opinion is just that. I clearly stated the fact that on several occasions President Kaczynski has been known to interfere and demand things that are not possible. This does not just apply to the crew of the plane but also others. In-fact his 2008 outburst because the Captain refused to land the plane in weather conditions is a prime example of what could have happened here as well. Regardless of if the pilot is a friend or not. In-fact if so, that could have led to error in judgment.

                        You don't have to be a jet engineer, expert or even know anything about the planes to know that you do not make multiple attempts to land the plane in a dense fog. In-fact the tower was warning the polish crew NOT TO LAND and divert to either Moscow or Minsk. I could potentially see any pilot stating that they might attempt to try to land, however once they failed they would divert. The fact that this pilot tried to land several times in rough weather shows that either President threw a fit and ordered the landing and the pilot followed the order (A-because its his duty to follow the orders of the president and B - Because we know what happened to the last pilot that did not) or this pilot was a fool and did not think this through which I HIGHLY DOUBT!!!!

                        Either way I don't think we will ever know the truth. One thing is for certain there was no Airplane Malfunction. The tower was speaking to the crew throughout the attempts and they have never reported any issues or even a glitch in any of the systems or control. It was Human Error, the only questions is...Is this Pilot Error or perhaps President's decision which led to catastrophe.

                        I don't know if we ever get to hear the entire black box recordings. I would hate for the family of the pilot to think of their Husband, Father, Son as someone who made an error, if in fact it was not his decision and he was following orders.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          By the way Olii. You stated that in Georgia incident it was a small problem between a President and the Pilot.

                          IN FACT IT WAS NOT. President Kaczynski was really upset with the pilot despite the fact that the pilot made the right decision and tried to punish the pilot because of this decision. In fact as stated and available online Polish Minister of Defense had to intervene and saved the pilot's license and career. If it was not for that he would have never flown again and most likely his career would be over for good. All because he chose to save everyone's life on-board and divert to another airport. I'm sorry but there were 5 heads of state on board along with many passengers during that trip in August of 2008. He choose lives and safety over Kaczynski's irrational demands and embarrassment.

                          I'm sorry that people died today and it's sad but let's deal with facts. President of United States would have nothing to say in regards to his safety or even travel arrangements. Captain of AFO is in charge during the transport and is in command and Secret Service in in charge of the details. Why Kaczynski was even allowed in the cockpit several times to make demands or orders is beyond me.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Cockpit gradient on steroids.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I'm sure there is often pressure on pilots to make on time landings for dignitaries. This reminds me of the Ron Brown accident:
                              The aircraft crashed while executing a non-precision NDB approach in bad weather. United States Commerce Secretary Ron Brown was among the passengers killed.
                              Source http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=04031996%AE=73-1149&airline=United+States+Air+Force

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Although I concur with your comments ATFS_Crash, please note that this was a different pilot than the one of the 'Georgian' incident. Hence, I disagree with your statement that
                                it seems this pilot has a history of being bullied into landing when he thought it was unsafe.
                                .

                                BBC and other sources now mention that the crew might have neglected ATC advice to hold or gain altitude as they were going below the glide path.

                                CVR hopefully will provide more clues shortly.

                                Comment

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