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  • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    I've been thinking that I should have quantified that statement by adding the words "unrecoverable attitude by the Crew of the subject aircraft. in other words, unrecoverable by this particular crew.
    Whatever actually happened I don't like to even think about what the passengers experienced as they fell vertically at almost 130mph. Somewhere around three minutes worth of sheer terror.
    Get all the passengers to stand in front of the cockpit door for 15 seconds?

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    • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
      I don't like to even think about what the passengers experienced as they fell vertically at almost 130mph. Somewhere around three minutes worth of sheer terror.
      As someone who sits in the cabin rather than the cockpit - my nervousness is inversely correlated to height. At 30,000+ft anything less than explosive decompression (at which point I would rapidly lose interest and consciousness) lends me to think that however bad things look and feel - the pilots have time to sort - and for every time they fail (AF447) there are many more who successfully use that time to recover (BA9 et al). Even AF447 should have taught every pilot not to do it again. It would be a real failure in aviation safety and training if that were not true.

      The lack of distress message is a puzzle. One that should be solved when the cockpit recorder is recovered. Which should be happening real soon I hope. We seem to be lacking recent news updates on the recovery mission/weather conditions.

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      • Originally posted by ultraflight View Post
        Gabriel:
        "Form all the power radiated by the radar, how much reaches the plane? (the farther the less, because the energy per sq ft is inversely proportional to the square of the distance)"

        I think a radar antenna usually is a parabolic one, sending out a much more concentrated beam that an omnidirectional transmitter.
        Yes.

        The inverse-square law generally applies when some force or energy is evenly radiated outward from a point source in three-dimensional space.
        Wrong. The inverse-square law still applies, no matter what shape the radiation lobe has. That's because the surface of the radiation lobe still grows with the square of the distance.

        A concentrated beam gives you much more W per sq ft in the radiated direction, and much less energy in any other direction, but the energy per sq ft (in any given direction) still decays with the square of the distance.

        So your comment was almost right:
        The inverse-square law generally applies when some force or energy is evenly radiated outward from a point source in three-dimensional space.
        Fixed.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
          A situation like that would normally still allow the pilots to make radio contact and communicate the emergency. What happened to QZ8501 must have been a) sudden and b) so severe that the pilot's couldn't report it.
          Or an overwhelming situation combined with a breakdown of CRM...

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          • Originally posted by Brainsys View Post
            Even AF447 should have taught every pilot not to do it again. It would be a real failure in aviation safety and training if that were not true.
            Don't trust so much in humans learning from the mistake of other humans. It would be not the first time where an accident is similar to a previous one. In fact, most of the times that's the case. It's hard to innovate in ways to crash airliners.

            AF itself was quite similar to other accidents. Neither the stall nor the loss of control after unreliable airspeed were invented that night.

            The lack of distress message is a puzzle. One that should be solved when the cockpit recorder is recovered. Which should be happening real soon I hope. We seem to be lacking recent news updates on the recovery mission/weather conditions.[/QUOTE]

            The lack of distress call is another usual thing, typically related to either a massive failure of the electrical system (and an in-flight break up is a very good way to achieve that) or by the pilots being overwhelmed by the situation and concentrating all their time and efforts in the "aviate" part of the emergency procedure (like in AF for example).

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
              Whatever actually happened I don't like to even think about what the passengers experienced as they fell vertically at almost 130mph. Somewhere around three minutes worth of sheer terror.
              if they truly fell, it's likely they didn't feel it since once you reach terminal velocity the sensation of falling, which actually acceleration, is nil.

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              • CNN reports 30 bodies have been recovered so far.

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                • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  if they truly fell, it's likely they didn't feel it since once you reach terminal velocity the sensation of falling, which actually acceleration, is nil.
                  If you are tumbling and your ship (or hwt remains of it) offers against the wind different shapes that produce drag and lift of varying magnitude and direction (and, from your perspective, they WILL have different directions if you are tumbling), you can very well feel a lot of sensations.

                  Take a plane spinning for example, and tell me that once the plane stabilized (constant speed, constant turn rate -in the order of the 20 RMP-, constant pith and bank) you don't feel that something is going WAY wrong. And that is a quite stable state among the many that they might have faced (imagine your section of the airplane where you happen to be tumbling randomly after in in-flight break up).

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • Originally posted by Jpmkam View Post
                    ... 30 bodies have been discovered so far.
                    Fixed. Swapped discovered for recovered.

                    I trust The Aviation Herald more than the CNN.

                    On Jan 2nd 2015 Indonesia Search and Rescue Services (SAR) reported that 30 bodies have been discovered so far, of the recovered 22 bodies 10 have already been taken to Surabaya, 4 are in Pangkalan Bun and 8 on ships. The SAR team also found and recovered new parts of debris of the aircraft.
                    Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                    • Oh, and they denied having found any cue of the main wreckage. There is no "shadow" (of an intact plane or otherwise), no "sonar image showing what seems to be the airplane upside down", nothing. They simply have no idea of where the plane is (except that they suspect that it cannot be that far from the bodies and debris found +/- drift).

                      They also denied that any of the bodies was wearing a life vest. None was. (but that was before the new body count)

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        Fixed. Swapped discovered for recovered.

                        I trust The Aviation Herald more than the CNN.
                        BBC article could be interpreted either way, but I read it as implying that they had been recovered:
                        Originally posted by BBC
                        More bodies have been recovered from the Java Sea, five days after AirAsia flight QZ8501 crashed, bringing the total found so far to 30, Indonesian rescue officials say.
                        The article also says that some of those were still strapped to their seats but doesn't attribute that to a source.

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                        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Oh, and they denied having found any cue of the main wreckage. There is no "shadow" (of an intact plane or otherwise), no "sonar image showing what seems to be the airplane upside down", nothing. They simply have no idea of where the plane is (except that they suspect that it cannot be that far from the bodies and debris found +/- drift).
                          Also they've not picked up any sign of the flight recorders with their equipment. I still find it odd that the main search area seems to be about 100 miles SE of the last known position, in the opposite direction to the direction of flight. Are the currents that strong?

                          BBC map:

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                          • Originally posted by sjwk View Post
                            ............

                            The article also says that some of those were still strapped to their seats but doesn't attribute that to a source.
                            I'm surprised that combination would be buoyant.

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                            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              If you are tumbling and your ship (or hwt remains of it) offers against the wind different shapes that produce drag and lift of varying magnitude and direction (and, from your perspective, they WILL have different directions if you are tumbling), you can very well feel a lot of sensations.

                              Take a plane spinning for example, and tell me that once the plane stabilized (constant speed, constant turn rate -in the order of the 20 RMP-, constant pith and bank) you don't feel that something is going WAY wrong. And that is a quite stable state among the many that they might have faced (imagine your section of the airplane where you happen to be tumbling randomly after in in-flight break up).
                              in a straight fall from 30k feet you will at some point cease to accelerate (prior to hitting the ground). as for spinning, yes you would continue to feel that.

                              i bet that there was no inflight break up. rather the aircraft entered into an unrecoverable state and gravity did the rest.

                              it still boggles my mind that no pinger detectors are on station yet. they are not super complicated rare items and i would bet that most navy vessels have the ability to listen. after all, any ship with military type sonar can hear the pings.

                              indonesia has a fairly robust navy with two active submarines. they can DEFINITELY hear pinging underwater. they also have two bases within spitting distance of the area of the crash. are we supposed to believe that they have not dispatched assets to the area?

                              something just doesn't ring right here.

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                              • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                                it still boggles my mind that no pinger detectors are on station yet. they are not super complicated rare items and i would bet that most navy vessels have the ability to listen. after all, any ship with military type sonar can hear the pings.
                                According to the BBC, Indonesia has deployed a detector, Singapore has sent two and France has sent a 'specialist team with sophisticated detection equipment' but so far nothing has been detected. It may also be that the weather is not good enough to use the equipment properly - the towed detectors apparently don't work so well in seas with 4m waves...

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