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TU-204 crash at VKO

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  • #61
    The plane did it.
    www.avherald.com
    On Jan 24th 2013 Russia's MAK reported that the captain was pilot flying during the landing on Vnukovo's runway 19. The computed Vref was 108 knots, the Vapp taking winds into account was set at 118 knots for flaps at 37 degrees and slats at 23 degrees and a landing weight of 67.5 tons. The aircraft was correctly configured, the center of gravity was at 26.5% MAC within limits. On final approach the aircraft was flown manually without autopilot and autothrust, the flight director however was used, the aircraft proceeded on final approach without any significant deviations. The aircraft crossed the runway threshold at 50 feet (15 meters) at 134 KIAS, after descending through 12 feet the aircraft took 10 seconds to touchdown, the thrust levers were moved to idle about 5 seconds prior to touchdown, which occurred at 118 KIAS about 900 meters down the runway (3060 meters length) with the left main gear signalling compressed. A gust of 22 knots from the right arrived at that time, the vertical acceleration reached +1.12G. 3 seconds after the left main gear signalled compressed the nose gear was lowered onto the runway, the right main gear still signalled not compressed. Almost simultaneously with lowering the nose gear the thrustlevers were moved to maximum reverse thrust in one move and the brakes were applied. Both thrust reversers did not deploy, both engines however spooled up to about 90% N1 delivering nominell thrust, however forward instead of backward. Neither spoilers nor air brakes automatically deployed, too, the crew did not deploy spoilers manually. Maximum brakes pressure was recorded for the left hand brakes with no pressure in the right hand brakes. About 2 seconds after the thrust levers had been placed at maximum reverse thrust the flight engineer called the thrust reversers had not deployed. About 7-8 seconds after touchdown the aircraft reached a minimum speed of about 104 knots, the thrust levers were taken out of reverse after being in reverse for 8 seconds, the airspeed had increased to 123 KIAS at that time causing further "unloading of the gear", the aircraft began to oscillate in roll from about 4.5 degrees left to about 2.6 degrees right causing that at no time both main landing gear legs were compressed simultaneously. Brakes were ineffective as brakes pressure was only applied with the gear leg reporting compressed. 5 seconds after the levers were moved out of reverse they were moved again into reverse, again neither thrust reverser deployed and the engines accelerated to 84% N1, about 4 seconds later the levers were moved out of reverse again, the aircraft was now about 950-1000 meters short of the runway end. The crew now attempted automated brakes, the thrust levers were placed at minimum reverse thrust. 32 seconds after touchdown the aircraft went past the end of the runway at a speed of 111 KIAS, the flight engineer shut down both engines by the emergency handle. Following the exit onto soft ground both main gear legs signalled compressed, the spoilers, air brakes and thrust reversers deployed, the aircraft however impacted the slope of the ravine at a speed of 98 knots.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #62
      one question: when he knew, and he must have known for several seconds, that there was no chance in stopping on the runway, why did he not pull up and go-around? he was fast enough to rotate. maybe the tragedy is that that was his exact intention as he was leaving the runway, but just before he could the FE killed the motors...
      moving quickly in air

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      • #63
        From what I can tell based on a translation of the MAK report on pprune, as well as an article in Flightglobal:

        A/C landed with left gear contacting the runway first, and activating the WOW on that strut. However, a wind gust caused the right wing to lift, thus not allowing the right leg the opportunity to compress, thus no WOW.

        Apparently, even after the NLG compressed, the right gear had not yet compressed fully enough to engage the WOW. The aircraft probably rocked at this stage, causing compression of the MLG struts and the WOW on each side to signal weight, but on only one side at a time, along with the compression of the strut on that side.

        When thrust was applied, the high forward thrust caused by the non-deployment of reversers further lessened the load on the struts, and thus no WOW signal.

        Thus, with no WOW from both MLG - no spoilers, and ineffective braking from the bogey on the side with no WOW.

        Once the engines were brought back towards idle close to the end of the runway, enough weight was placed on the gear to cause WOW from both MLG, and thus unlocking the reversers and deploying spoilers...

        It appears that the PIC pulled the thrust levers directly into reverse without pausing at idle and waiting for an indication that the reversers had deployed...

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        • #64
          OK, I just don't get the design 'logic' of needing multiple WOW signals to engage the spoilers, reversers, etc.

          Being a non-pilot, what landing scenarios might there be where such a triggering logic would make sense?

          TIA
          Arrow

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          • #65
            Originally posted by TheKiecker View Post
            So only one landing sensor nullifies every way to stop the plane?
            I guess so.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              The plane did it.
              www.avherald.com
              Man, that's a lot to sort out in only a few seconds. It would seem the design would be better served if spoilers, reversers and breaking would be accessible with either one of the WOW switches compressed.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by orangehuggy View Post
                one question: when he knew, and he must have known for several seconds, that there was no chance in stopping on the runway, why did he not pull up and go-around? he was fast enough to rotate. maybe the tragedy is that that was his exact intention as he was leaving the runway, but just before he could the FE killed the motors...
                Because in too many instances that has resulted in much bigger crashes killing lots more people. (Consider how easily he could have tried to go around about the time the spoilers went up or the reversers popped out).
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  Because in too many instances that has resulted in much bigger crashes killing lots more people...
                  I don't agree, do you have an example?

                  in my opinion a G/A was the only choice for maybe 10 seconds to prevent an excursion before it was too late
                  moving quickly in air

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by orangehuggy View Post
                    one question: when he knew, and he must have known for several seconds, that there was no chance in stopping on the runway, why did he not pull up and go-around? he was fast enough to rotate. maybe the tragedy is that that was his exact intention as he was leaving the runway, but just before he could the FE killed the motors...
                    Not only were they fast enough to rotate, they basically flew down the length of the entire runway above Vref. They should have gone TOGA and tried again.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by orangehuggy View Post
                      in my opinion a G/A was the only choice for maybe 10 seconds to prevent an excursion before it was too late
                      I don't agree. With this long runway and light plane, it would have probably almost stopped by itself with no "active" braking means, hadn't there been significant forward thrust added.

                      They only had to stop applying "false" reverse. They probably had an indication showing that the reverser(s) were not secured in the reverse position.

                      All that said, the landing is a very high-workload situation and I can see them not realizing of the problem, especially if they got an initial indication of reverseres deployed. The fisrt and most important thing that failed here, if things are what they look like, is aircraft design which, with the thrust levers in reverse, should have never permited a combination of thrust above iddle and reversers not deployed.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                      • #71
                        They're learning anyway...

                        Originally posted by Incident: Red Wings T204 at Moscow on Jan 29th 2013, thrust reverser did not correctly open on landing

                        "The crew did not apply higher reverse thrust settings on the right hand engine and slowed the aircraft safely."

                        Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

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                        • #72
                          Well some good news for Redwings and it's fleet of beautiful Tupolev's;

                          1. The Company was sold by owner Alexander Lebedev. For 1 Rouble! (wish I'd known I would love to buy 7 x TU-204's for a Ruble

                          2. The CEO has been replaced

                          3. Their operating licence is being renewed after the 3 month suspension

                          4. They plan to resume their Charter Flights soon for the Summer Season

                          Source:

                          Главные новости политики, экономики и бизнеса, комментарии аналитиков, финансовые данные с российских и мировых биржевых систем на сайте rbc.ru.


                          Redwings was the only Company interested in the new TU-204SM. This Aircraft has a new improved Engine and improvements to Navigation and Flight Control systems for memory. It should be much more competitive than their current TU-204's but Lebedev could not agree on the Maintenance Contract terms. Now he is gone perhaps this deal will be revisited? Fingers Crossed.

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                          • #73
                            Oh I really hope they start service pretty soon! I am in BCN in July and would love to catch on of their Tupolevs.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by tsv View Post
                              1. The Company was sold by owner Alexander Lebedev. For 1 Rouble! (wish I'd known I would love to buy 7 x TU-204's for a Ruble
                              Careful now. You are probably just joking, but when a company is sold for so little, usually the case is they have very troubled finances and crippling financial obligations. Meaning, you inherit their massive debt, not just their assets.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Careful what you wish for eh?

                                Yeah no doubt they would have had plenty of debt.

                                Which brings me to a Philosophical question about who should (or should) not be allowed to own an Airline?

                                In this case Redwings was bought (or maybe created, I haven't checked the History) by an Oligarch type chap called Lebedev. Oligarchs are either clever fellas, glorified crooks or some combination of the two depending on your views. But very few (i.e. virtually none) made their first fortune from Aviation.

                                So let's paint a picture.

                                Oleg Oligarch makes megabucks from taking over some former Soviet Business. Holiday houses are purchased far & wide, the kids are educated at Cambridge and Wives 1 to N all are wear designer clothes and drive Mercs. OO still has plenty too spend so he buys a Football/Hockey team. They win, they lose, they draw, who cares, boredom is setting in. New Idea! Let's start an Airline!!

                                Excitement at last, Top People are recruited, Aircraft are bought (via OO's impeccable lines of credit), new routes are opened. The dream is unfolding.

                                Fast forward 3 years. Reality has set in. OO's Airline, like so many others, is losing money. Nobody likes losing $, not even Oligarch's who earnt/acquired it faster than you could print it. Time to stick it up the CEO. Cut your F.. Costs Comrade or I'll cut off your F .... B...

                                The obvious target is Maintenance. It costs a fortune and nobody checks it anyway, especially if the right people are "persuaded" to kindly go do their checking somewhere else.

                                Fast forward another year. The planes are arriving broke all the time, near misses are mounting up. An unwelcome feeling of inevitability is in the Air. The Airline is eventually grounded, OO sells for a Ruble and moves on. He loses some $ but not so much % wise of the family fortune. Losses are limited by his Accountant's clever Corporate Structure. Bad luck about the Airline but the next Property Investment venture in the Greek Islands should work out better.

                                End of painting.

                                So is the above scenario far fetched or not? And if not should the World worry more about who owns the Airlines we fly on and what their background is? Should Airline Owners for example have a background in Aviation? Should they be held personally liable for Safety Breaches? What could be done Globally to check standards are being maintained? Does IATA have a role?

                                I don't have the answers but the notion of Oligarchs owning Airlines doesn't sit well with me.

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