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  • Dassault Falcon crash Moscow

    Just read that a Dassault Falcon transporting the CEO of the French oil company Total crashed with a snow plough during take-off at the Vnukovo airport in Moscow on October 20th. The CEO as well as the 3 crew-members allegedly did not survive. RIP.

    Apparently the accident happened while there was 350m visibility and after the first snowfall.

    http://bit.ly/1pw0vMW

  • #2
    ...and with a drunk snow plough driver...

    Comment


    • #3
      I hope the drunk driver likes salt on his food....because if he survives this it will be the Siberian salt mines for him !
      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

      Comment


      • #4
        Russian authorities were rather quick to tell us the snow plow driver was drunk, which makes me think he wasn't or it made no difference. Probably an incorrect runway assignment or a runway cleared incorrectly.

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        • #5
          In that case what odds on the snowplough driver having an unfortunate "Accident" in the near future ?
          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            In that case what odds on the snowplough driver having an unfortunate "Accident" in the near future ?
            Slipping on the soap in the gulag maybe.

            Q: Why aren't airports required to have a ground control display and all ground vehicles required to have a gps 'transponder'? Traffic is traffic right? In the air or on the runway is irrelevant. If all ground controllers had a board showing little icons for ground vehicles, with maybe a flashing red icon when they are on the runway and an amber one when they are appraoching a runway crossing, these things couldn't happen.

            Too easy?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              Slipping on the soap in the gulag maybe.

              Q: Why aren't airports required to have a ground control display and all ground vehicles required to have a gps 'transponder'? Traffic is traffic right? In the air or on the runway is irrelevant. If all ground controllers had a board showing little icons for ground vehicles, with maybe a flashing red icon when they are on the runway and an amber one when they are appraoching a runway crossing, these things couldn't happen.

              Too easy?
              Oh yes they could still happen, just as airplanes hit each other in the air from time to time even in radar environment.

              And ground/taxi radar for airport operation exist. It's not cheap AFAIK, and only few (major) airports have it.
              As far as a "GPS transponder", well, that would be in the realm of ADS-B, which is just starting to be implemented in airplanes as part of the "next gen" ATC system.
              The transponder on the ground vehicles could be good coupled with TCAS. Airplane TCAS alerts are inhibited (I think) when the airplane is on the ground, but maybe a new logic can take these situations into account.

              Finally, let's admit that these accidents are infrequent (more than others, I mean). If you ask me, put all that money and effort to fix CFIT, loss of control and "three pilots up there but none flying the plane" first.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #8
                The snowplough driver has said he got lost and didn't realise he was on the runway, and that he wasn't drunk as he doesn't drink.

                A snowplough driver at a Moscow airport says he lost his bearings before a collision with a plane that killed Total oil boss Christophe de Margerie.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  Oh yes they could still happen, just as airplanes hit each other in the air from time to time even in radar environment.

                  And ground/taxi radar for airport operation exist. It's not cheap AFAIK, and only few (major) airports have it.
                  As far as a "GPS transponder", well, that would be in the realm of ADS-B, which is just starting to be implemented in airplanes as part of the "next gen" ATC system.
                  The transponder on the ground vehicles could be good coupled with TCAS. Airplane TCAS alerts are inhibited (I think) when the airplane is on the ground, but maybe a new logic can take these situations into account.

                  Finally, let's admit that these accidents are infrequent (more than others, I mean). If you ask me, put all that money and effort to fix CFIT, loss of control and "three pilots up there but none flying the plane" first.
                  Location of ground vehicles is easy and really very cheap using GPS. When I worked in ambulance control I could use simple software to track any of our vehicles in real time. It gave location, heading and speed. Accuracy of location was within 1 metre.
                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                    Location of ground vehicles is easy and really very cheap using GPS. When I worked in ambulance control I could use simple software to track any of our vehicles in real time. It gave location, heading and speed. Accuracy of location was within 1 metre.
                    How was the data relayed to you? (honest question).
                    AFAIK, the problem with all these position tracking systems is not producing the fix itself (and all the derivatives, heading, speed, speed trend, altitude, vertical speed, turn rate, you name it...) but making the network that allows dozens (or hundreds) of these targets to send that information to dozens (or hundreds) of receivers (all senders would be receivers too if they want the traffic info displayed for them, but then you'd have other receivers like ATC) in a synchronized way.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Russian authorities were rather quick to tell us the snow plow driver was drunk, which makes me think he wasn't or it made no difference. Probably an incorrect runway assignment or a runway cleared incorrectly.
                      It would have been much more unusual had he been sober.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                        It would have been much more unusual had he been sober.
                        Now they've detained the intern air traffic controller, her supervisor, the head of air traffic controllers and the head of runway cleaning. And the chief executive of Vnukovo airport and his deputy have "resigned". Were they all drunk too? Everything's coming up Russian.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          How was the data relayed to you? (honest question).
                          AFAIK, the problem with all these position tracking systems is not producing the fix itself (and all the derivatives, heading, speed, speed trend, altitude, vertical speed, turn rate, you name it...) but making the network that allows dozens (or hundreds) of these targets to send that information to dozens (or hundreds) of receivers (all senders would be receivers too if they want the traffic info displayed for them, but then you'd have other receivers like ATC) in a synchronized way.
                          Each vehicle is fitted with what is effectively a transponder and GPS locator. Transponder transmits speed and heading and is slaved to the GPS which places an icon on a computer based map. All I had to do was click on the cursor to see the data. Crew names, qualifications and shift time were displayed on another monitor along with details of the call they were currently allocated to or their status if not actively on a current call.
                          This was actually a watered down version of the systems used by the ambulance service in Richmond, Virginia. They use all that I describe above together with a "Black Box" which records speed, direction, gear that the transmission is in, left/right/forward/back G forces at any given time and throttle position. All this is automatically checked at the end of shift and warnings are flagged up if the system detects excessive acceleration, braking and/or cornering G forces. If preset parameters are exceeded it's a meeting with the boss for you, suspension without pay and remedial driver training without pay. Continuing "offences" mean dismissal.

                          The staff turnover in Richmond was about 70% per annum when my service visited there. No real surprise there then !
                          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            Now they've detained the intern air traffic controller, her supervisor, the head of air traffic controllers and the head of runway cleaning. And the chief executive of Vnukovo airport and his deputy have "resigned". Were they all drunk too?
                            I wouldn't be shocked.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In Russia they probably use GLOASS rather than GPS based on statements by Russian officials.

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