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  • #31
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I am flying this beast all week, you think I am taking this into an active cell. You are out of your mind.
    Just try to land it at the right airport this time

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Just try to land it at the right airport this time

      Twas not me last time! But I will keep it in mind!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 3WE
        ...A tornado hit the airport...
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        Certainly. It looks much worse.
        Were pilots knowingly landing into this?
        No- and my post is 1/2 off topic, but 1/2 on topic...

        I contend that there's a big chunk of civilian weather information that the aviation community continues to ignore.

        Back in 1973, long before Delta 191, there was a line of strong storms being tracked by the weather service by a much less advanced RADAR system. Nevertheless, the NWS knew they were borderine severe, and in fact a severe thunderstorm warning was issued.



        There was no fancy FDR on the plane, I even think the CVR failed. No physic's modeling done- the pilots remember flying along, seeing dark clouds, hitting some bumps and waking up in the hospital and not much inbetween. Forum member ATLcrew knows one of them. The plane was about 2 miles short of landing and dropped out of the sky. (And- FWIW the aircraft ahead went around!)

        But here we go- a severe thunderstorm warnings, the airport operates.
        -Little Rock AA- severe thunderstorm warning, the airport operates, planes make approaches and attempt landings.
        -Delta 191- the failure of "the system" to provide the most up to date radar reports was cited as a contributing factor. Planes make approaches and landings, and the lear ahead of 191 says he encounters the worst turbulence he's ever seen- but does not relay a PIREP.
        -And STL- (aviation cares about the weather right??? so we load planes, give taxi instructions, and let passengers sit by the window) while the three "storm teams" from the TV stations track the rotation for two hours while it aims DEAD AT THE AIRPORT.

        So your call sir- does this rank a second, stand alone thread of "Why in the hell doesn't aviation pay more attention to civilian weather stuff", or does it fit in with dangerous approaches into stormy weather- since the communication of weather data is important????

        No, planes were not landing during the tornado, but they were loading with the intent of taxiing and then departing as soon as there was a reasonable gap so they could weave around in close proximity to the rotating, borderline-tornadic super cells that were about...
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          Again, I think that rather what the weather was, the question is about what the pilots decided with the info they had.

          You can have winds with significant changes in speed and direction (windshear, wind gradients) with clear skies, and pouring rain with no thunderstorms. But what a thunderstorm might (or might not) give you is totally different. What about a microbrust, for example?

          In this case, the wether was not that bad in the hindsight: A good wash, little chop, good visibility, mild winds.

          But before actually experiencing the landing, what they knew is that there was a whole line of red stuff crossing over the airport, a lot of electric activity around the field, and the tower reporting that the field was under a thinderstorm right now.

          We all agree that doesn't mean that the actual conditions are really so bad after all, and in this case it wasn't bad at all. But is it wise to go and have a look?


          I call this BS. Please define "necesity". And when the weather exceeds the plane's or pilot's capacity, it doesn't matter how accostumed the pilot might be.

          to begin with, here is a quote from a 737 pilot friend: "The video could have been done by a jump-seater, but OK, so we have a little rain shower, so what? As long as there is not an excessive amount of turbulence, there is no requirement to go around. The pilots from the previous flight should have called out "+or - 100 ft" or whatever it was. If it was out of limits, they should have held off. The red on the screen is just the amount of rainfall."

          as to necessity, my intent was to say that they fly into airports that regularly experience "weather." hell, i've flown into DFW on crystal clear days that had so much turbulence we missed approaches, with monster runways. i landed in barbados in middle of a tropical storm. so, like my friend says, yeah there was rain. fly into mia much? rain and thunderstorms do not stop landings and takeoffs there. lightning will close the ramp but only because folks are working outside.

          i'm not a pilot nor a meterologist. BB may disagree and so may MCM. heck, everyone may disagree. but as a passenger with well over 1000000 flight miles i gotta say that the video depicted some fairly tame weather.

          tropical rainstorms can look like monsters on radar and have almost no wind. the radar may be reflecting huge amounts of rain, which in and of itself is not dangerous, assuming vis is within limits.

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          • #35
            Re:

            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            -And STL- (aviation cares about the weather right??? so we load planes, give taxi instructions, and let passengers sit by the window) while the three "storm teams" from the TV stations track the rotation for two hours while it aims DEAD AT THE AIRPORT.
            As I recall, they did evacuate the terminal just minutes before it hit the airport. Several Youtube videos show that.

            In any case, you won't find such a close call here in the Sooner state. On May 31st of last year the terminal at OKC was evacuated well before the actual storm came into the vicinity of the airfield. Then again the last half of May last year was nuts even for us, but that's another subject altogether...

            Back on topic, this thread reminds me of Eastern 66 accident at JFK in '75. Quite a similar story with other microburst-induced aviation accidents wherein aircraft landing prior either encountered severe turbulence or almost crashed in a go-around attempt, and the not-so-lucky aircraft was next.

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            • #36
              Radar coverage of Memphis area as thunderstorm passes through.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #37

                And that's what I am talking about! Great video by the way Gabriel.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post



                  i'm not a pilot nor a meterologist.

                  tropical rainstorms can look like monsters on radar and have almost no wind. the radar may be reflecting huge amounts of rain, which in and of itself is not dangerous, assuming vis is within limits.
                  You know what happens when you assume?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                    We all are qualified on all three aircraft, 744,748 and the LCF. It doesn't really fly any different other than a little bit more wind noise than the others, and it rumbles a bit. No auto-lands approved and pretty cramped upstairs if there is more than a crew of 2.
                    Do you have the downstairs nose section as a crew lounge on that one?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      You know what happens when you assume?
                      nothing. you're either right or you're wrong and life goes on.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gabriel's FedEx Storm at MEM
                        Indeed.

                        What I want to know- and we don't have the resoulution to check- is how close was the storm at the point of the last landing?

                        ...and what decisions led those first few stragglers to sneak in early on the backside?

                        And, from experience, I bet a beer that the FedEx MEM was a nasty windy storm (textbook nightime MCS shape), whereas your origninal post seemed like a wonderful gentle thunderstorm...one that gives everything a good drink, but with no serious wind.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Foxtrot View Post
                          As I recall, they did evacuate the terminal just minutes before it hit the airport. Several Youtube videos show that.

                          Umm...how about you look at the Youtubes I posted, and I'd like to see the Youtubes you reference...They did not evacuate "minutes before". A guy is sitting at his gate, you hear stuff breaking, he ducks down for seconds and pops up to busted windows and a hole in the ceiling. (And it's all over in seconds.). In the SWA area, you see the tornadic winds hitting, someone sees a plane moved by wind AND THEN they "evacuate". Security guys dive for the bathrooms AS debris is blowing down hallway (after the building is clearly comprimised). In fact, they are lucky that this was not too big of Tornado- just busted some windows and tore off some roofing.


                          However, thanks for the OKC example. Yes, I think that's a bit more in line with how it should be done...Heck, 1 hour may be too far in the other direction.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            nothing. you're either right or you're wrong and life goes on.
                            Not always. Sometimes people die, more often when somebody made wrong assumptions.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              Do you have the downstairs nose section as a crew lounge on that one?
                              No, everything is on the upper deck, and there is not much of it.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                                nothing. you're either right or you're wrong and life goes on.
                                Actually it makes an ass out of u and me!

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