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  • Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After ta!keoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250’ after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800’ after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real “flight time” or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, it’s the same only they get more inflated logbooks.

    I never thought of it that way. So most of a pilots flight hours might actually refer more to programming and using the flight management system, than actually flying the airplane! Eye opening!!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
      Yes. A pilot begins with a new a/c, i.e. he has - on his maiden flight - zero flight hours of experience, on the real thing.
      But, again I'm only speaking for myself, a good pilot should only apply for a seat in the cockpit, if the a/c that he or she is applyin for is not completely unknown.
      Was he or she passenger yet on that precise type?
      What do you know about a B772ER?
      - If I had to answer, not very much.

      And sorry Brian, I've just been so insane to cut of 2,500 of your posts (in #354), ... indeed almost 9,000? So who is crazy of the two of us?

      PS: What still strikes me, although "The Great Survival" is more than 24 hours ago, I still hold that newspaper in my hands, and they say, the final app spd was not more than 160 kilometres per hour (86,4 kias), in a triple7!!!
      The pnf should BEAT the pf, if he'd ever try something below 130 kias in a (heavy) jet.

      And what, if the OZ-B772ER was on app too fast? Well, I love my B744 fsx for her fmc messages. "vref app not selected". But that, of course, can't result in a violent loss of airspeed, only to reach the rwy without g/a.
      One go-around procedure is always (!) part of the fuel planning.

      And what, if this OZ-B772ER pf is an ex OZ-B744 pilot with 9,000 flight hours on the 747?!
      Two engines vs four, one passenger deck vs two, in case of a doubt, I don't wanna be the one who is part of "downsizing". Because a 777 is a completely different aircraft.

      Imho, a 777 can't be flown by a 747 pilot, if the second pilot in the cockpit isn't a 777 instructor.
      Not trying to put you down (to much), but as a MSFS pilot only, you really have no idea what you are talking about here.

      No I have no experience in the 777, but I have flown all models of the 747 including the 747-8 which is very similar to the 777 cockpit setup.

      The other pilot in the right seat (even though it was his first as an instructor) did have quite a lot of time on type.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        And since we are counting posts, what would be better than celebrate post 3K with a totally nonsense and off-topic comment like this?

        Gabriel, I am surprised at you! I must be rubbing off on you a little. LOL

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          I hadn't thought about this, but in the final moments before touchdown, the PNF often has to:

          "Kill" the pressurization.
          Turn off the GPWS or some other altitude alert.
          -others?

          (Don't know if this applies to a 777 or not, but if so, it's an interesting question of distraction from watching really basic stuff to take care of automation, at a fairly critical time too).
          Not in a Boeing--the outflow valve opens automatically after landing and the GPWS callouts are not heard as long as the airplane is in the proper landing configuration (flaps set to a normal landing position and gear down). The only time we do anything with the GPWS is in an unusual configuration, such as a single-engine landing (you don't use as much flap to ensure the capability to meet climb performance requirements in the event of a single-engine go around), or a non-normal flap position due to a malfunction in the flap mechanism itself.

          As I recall though, on the British Aerospace Jetstream I was flying 20 years ago we DID turn the pressurization off when we made the final flap setting ("flaps 50, flows off" was the call as I remember it).
          The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
            OMG! I love it!

            Obviously you are one of the bunch like my F/O RJ wiz kids that I fly with everyday that think I need to retire and get out of "HIS" seat.

            I am glad to have brought you so much enjoyment at MY expense!

            Really looking forward to flying with you, NOT

            Comment


            • Originally posted by phoneman View Post
              Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After ta!keoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250’ after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800’ after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real “flight time” or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, it’s the same only they get more inflated logbooks.

              I never thought of it that way. So most of a pilots flight hours might actually refer more to programming and using the flight management system, than actually flying the airplane! Eye opening!!
              When I started my airline career flying 19 passenger turboprops, we had to hand-fly everything because we had no autopilot. Visual approaches, ILS approaches down to 200' with 1800 RVR, Non-Precision approaches into challenging places like Wenatchee, Washington, and we didn't think twice about it. In the Boeing I still enjoy hand-flying and I will quite often hand-fly the airplane up to the cruise altitude. That means about 20 minutes +/- of actual "flying" the airplane. Hand flying in RVSM airspace is not an option since pilots are not "RVSM certified" (Humans don't meet the same precision requirements for RVSM in the same sense that autopilots do--I'm not talking about general flying qualifications). So, the average pilot may get anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes of actual stick and rudder time during a given flight, depending on when he or she puts the autopilot on. Normally though, the time we DO fly is the most challenging part of the flight (taking off or landing).

              That's not to say that the time on the autopilot is "lost" and the experience doesn't count--most of flying the airplane is the "head work" and decision making. You can take a mediocre pilot with good head work and, with training and discipline, turn him or her into a good pilot. It's much tougher to turn a good stick and rudder guy with mediocre thinking ability into a good pilot. I've seen it tried.
              The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                Obviously you are one of the bunch like my F/O RJ wiz kids that I fly with everyday that think I need to retire and get out of "HIS" seat.

                I am glad to have brought you so much enjoyment at MY expense!

                Really looking forward to flying with you, NOT
                Not hardly Bobby... I'm old and gray just like you--I just got a kick out of the humor he used in his comment. My clapping was directed at the dry sense of humor in the words, not at you personally. Hell, I'd have made the same reply if he had said the same thing about me.

                I fly with the same whiz kids you do and some of them are pretty sharp--just like we were when we were the "whiz kids." I will agree with you that there does seem to be an "entitlement" mindset among some in the younger generation, but that's a discussion for another thread.
                The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

                Comment


                • Evacuation delayed by 90 seconds...

                  As soon as Asiana Flight 214 came to a stop after a crash landing that tore off the tail and sent the Boeing 777 spinning down the runway at San Francisco International Airport, the lead flight attendant asked pilots if she should begin evacuating passengers. The answer: No.


                  Pilot blinded by flash of light:

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                    Not trying to put you down (to much), but as a MSFS pilot only, you really have no idea what you are talking about here.

                    No I have no experience in the 777, but I have flown all models of the 747 including the 747-8 which is very similar to the 777 cockpit setup.

                    The other pilot in the right seat (even though it was his first as an instructor) did have quite a lot of time on type.
                    Please open the door and start the engines for me. Give me a sectional chart, and even I will fly the 777 in daylight VFR (as I did with the 737).

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      Obviously you are one of the bunch like my F/O RJ wiz kids that I fly with everyday that think I need to retire and get out of "HIS" seat.
                      This an an endemic problem, this attitude thing. BoeingBobby, I'm sure you are one hell of a pilot and the guy on the right might not be but do you think it is really possible for a veteran pilot to overcome the cockpit gradient?

                      Q: If you were on final approach that was falling apart (beyond the acceptable range) but in your long experience you felt confident that you could stabilize before 500' and your RJ wizz kid F/O starts prodding you to go around, what should you do in that situation?

                      Comment


                      • From that USA article and the briefing from NTSB Chariwoman Hersman:

                        "In the last 2 1/2 minutes, from the FDR, we see multiple autopilot modes and we see multiple auto throttle modes..."

                        This seems to suggest to me that they were struggling with system complexity and application. It will no doubt become more apparent when the associated CVR is matched to those system commands.

                        My question to pilots is whether there is any reason to be switching modes on A/P and A/T this late in the approach?

                        I have often seen less experienced operators of complex procedures 'follow the checklist' without fully understanding the consequences or being able to translate these procedures into actual status other than knowing that 'we always do this after that'.

                        This again seems to coincide with that ex-UAL trainer pilot's perception that some Asianna and KAL crews seemed to know the book by heart but couldn't apply it in non-standard situations.

                        So, not only first time landing a 777 at SFO for the left seat, but first time instructing a relative newbie in the right seat. In itself not unique as every pilot has a long list of 'firsts', but the de-facto competency of each of these pilots is becoming alarmingly shaky. More importantly, how was this buried underneath so many checks and balances for so long? I still feel that there must have been warning signs... previous incidents that pointed to a lack of proficiency in piloting, managing complex systems and decision making.

                        Its not just a lack of speaking out in the moment that a mistake is being made, but also possibly a lack of reporting post flight that 'the captain didn't seem to be coping well with commanding the aircraft, systems or its crew'.

                        In the UK we had CHIRP which when used properly can catch insufficient attitude and aptitude that slips through the usual checks. I wonder if eastern culture even allows that without negative consequences.

                        Again, I have to advocate the use of a QAR (quick access recording system) that unlike a DFR which is reviewed after an incident or accident by authorities, is used by the airlines to constantly asses performance for review and training purposes. Cathay and BA have used it for 20 years.
                        Is it time to force this system onto carriers with questionable CRM for review by governing authorities to ensure crews that enter their airspace are sufficiently competent?

                        As commercial pressures continue in the aviation world, does self regulation really work where accountants get to over-rule years of experience ond procedure? I know it didn't work at the airline I worked for.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                          Evacuation delayed by 90 seconds...

                          As soon as Asiana Flight 214 came to a stop after a crash landing that tore off the tail and sent the Boeing 777 spinning down the runway at San Francisco International Airport, the lead flight attendant asked pilots if she should begin evacuating passengers. The answer: No.


                          Pilot blinded by flash of light:
                          http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...inded/2507059/
                          I'm struggling with the blinded by the light story. Where did it come from? The sun would have been very high in the sky and the idea of a laser just doesn't strike me as likely, particularly since they were gyrating all over the sky at that point. Does the CVR record anything like "what was that bright light? I can't see!"?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                            I'm struggling with the blinded by the light story. Where did it come from? The sun would have been very high in the sky and the idea of a laser just doesn't strike me as likely, particularly since they were gyrating all over the sky at that point. Does the CVR record anything like "what was that bright light? I can't see!"?
                            Blinding light = oh f@*%! we've screwed the pooch!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
                              And I am famous for telling you to back off...that humans make mistakes, etc. In this case, however, I am just as indignant as you. Perhaps more so. I usually subscribe to the philosophy that, as Ernest Gann so eloquently put it, "Only very rarely will a pilot expose his own bowl of fortune cookies to the possibility of air decay and be tempted into blurting out what is sometimes the undeniable truth..."

                              I'll be the first to admit that I make mistakes in airplanes... But in this case, I am going to take out my fortune cookies and state that I don't see how FOUR pilots can shoot an approach without looking at the airspeed for the last several seconds of the approach! So...I'm guessing that SOMEONE must have seen the airspeed getting low. Not only that, but the guys with more time in the 777 should have realized just from the sight picture outside that something wasn't right. So, I'm betting that SOMEBODY knew things were going horribly wrong. I find it unconscionable that NOBODY SAID ANYTHING!!!

                              I think the truth is going to come down to cultural issues vs. CRM. If my gut feeling is right, I truly hope this causes the same changes in the Asian airlines that the KLM/PAA accident did for European and US airlines.
                              This...also, isn't the pilot flying, when hand flying an approach on final, required to have his/her hand at the ready on the throttles, regardless of whether the auto thrust is engaged or not? This seems so basic.

                              Comment


                              • put very succinctly by a pilot friend of mine, "who gives a shit about the a/t working or not? two pilots were there supposedly flying the plane. clearly they didn't. so even if they find out that there was some kind of malfunction with the automation, the two guys up front are at fault. period. end of story."

                                he made this comment to me after speaking with a retired AA 777 pilot, with 10 years of flying the 777.

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