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777 Crash and Fire at SFO

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  • All in all I'd say its one of the best threads I've ever started.

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    • Originally posted by TheKiecker View Post
      All in all I'd say its one of the best threads I've ever started.

      Almost as good as "Breaking News, the NTSB has identified the four pilots..."
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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      • and for this, "the complexities of the autothrottle and autopilot flight director systems that were inadequately described in Boeing’s documentation and Asiana’s pilot training, which increased the likelihood of mode error..."

        boeing is going to pay. right or wrong.

        and yes, i know that 100's (?) of 777's have flown ??????? flights without incident, and likely, the real cause here was a combination of Asiana’s pilot training and lack of communication. but let's face it, if a jury is told by some fairly decent experts and are aware that the NTSB also found that beoing inadequately described... they are going to award the pax and families big bucks.

        boeing will settle for a confidential amount.

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        • I have to say I find one thing interesting.

          I completely understand that this does not excuse the pilots not understanding exactly how the automation works but... Who's the bonehead that had the idea to call the autothrottle mode where it doesn't do anything "hold" mode (mentioned just after the 2-minute mark in the video)?

          This is generalizing across aircraft and maybe the 777 is different but on many I've seen... the autopilot's altitude "hold" mode maintains the selected altitude, and heading "hold" mode maintains the selected heading. But autothrottle "hold" mode does essentially nothing, and in particular does NOT maintain the selected speed?

          IMHO that seems pretty counterintuitive.
          Be alert! America needs more lerts.

          Eric Law

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          • Originally posted by elaw View Post
            I have to say I find one thing interesting.

            I completely understand that this does not excuse the pilots not understanding exactly how the automation works but... Who's the bonehead that had the idea to call the autothrottle mode where it doesn't do anything "hold" mode (mentioned just after the 2-minute mark in the video)?

            IMHO that seems pretty counterintuitive.
            Agree and concur. It should be IDLE HLD.

            Very interesting revelation in the report that switching off both FD's brings the AT back into SPD mode. I have not found this in any Boeing literature. Even if these boneheads did not understand FLCH, if they just killed the FD's (why would you need them on a visual approach?) they would have been just fine.

            And... the PM moved the thrust levers in the end! You can't even give the PF credit for that!

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            • I repeat myself a few times here - for good reason.

              Its pretty simple guys. Its called HOLD for a damn good reason. Its HOLDING the thrust.

              ...the autopilot's altitude "hold" mode maintains the selected altitude, and heading "hold" mode maintains the selected heading. But autothrottle "hold" mode does essentially nothing, and in particular does NOT maintain the selected speed?
              You've actually answered your own question. Altitude Hold maintains altitude, Heading Hold maintains heading, and Thrust Hold maintains THRUST. There is a SPEED mode, which maintains SPEED on thrust, just as there is a Speed mode of the pitch that maintains speed on elevator. Neither of those are THRUST hold.

              The A/T "hold" mode most certainly does do something! It holds the thrust! Yes, sometimes this is after they have reached the IDLE stop, but not always. Its not a speed control mode, its a THRUST control mode. Why would A/T HOLD have anything to do with maintaining speed?!?!?!?!

              HOLD is that it HOLDS thrust. That section of the FMA is not the SPEED section. It is the THRUST section.

              And sorry Evan, but you are showing a lack of understanding of the system if you think that IDLE HOLD is an appropriate thing for the FMA to say. IDLE is one thing, HOLD is another.

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              • As I read all that, I didn't think there was quite enough emphasis on the fact that they did a pretty crappy job watching airspeed and being aware of the power setting which is always important- and maybe a little more important during short final and initial flare, and which is a super incredibly basic fundamental airmanship skill you are supposed to have at about 6 or 8 hours into your initial flight training shortly before you solo a largely unautomated single engine aircraft...

                (And I concede- I go bipolar on this...the poor sucker probably had autothrottles watching speed for him for several hundred previous landings and was expecting things to be as they always were as he slipped into place on short final on a beautiful afternoon after a long flight...)
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • Here, right at 3 minutes in the video simulation...is when any reasonable PIC paying attention either adds a serious amount of power or hits TOGA and goes around altogether.

                  The fact that they passed this critical moment without changing anything (except the PIC's increasing back pressure on the stick) is just ridiculous.

                  Never mind the piss poor hand flying up till then...

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                  • Originally posted by MCM View Post
                    And sorry Evan, but you are showing a lack of understanding of the system if you think that IDLE HOLD is an appropriate thing for the FMA to say. IDLE is one thing, HOLD is another.
                    HOLD on, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying HOLD should be renamed IDLE HOLD. I'm saying that the condition the AT is in under FLCH, ONCE THE THRUST HAS BEEN RETARDED TO IDLE AND IS NOW FROZEN THERE, should be called IDLE HLD. This is a particular condition of the AP mode/AT interaction unique to FLCH and I think (aside from pilots learning how the damn modes work) it might be a good idea to remind them that the AT is in IDLE and is stuck there until either the next mode becomes active or thrust is taken manually.

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                    • Originally posted by MCM View Post
                      Its pretty simple guys. Its called HOLD for a damn good reason. Its HOLDING the thrust.
                      Okay, okay, I get it!

                      I would have thought "thrust hold mode" would consist of putting the throttle levers in a particular position and leaving them there, but I get that it's a bit more complex than that.

                      In the case of this accident, it appears that mode should have been called "TMWTAWSYAIYLAGTL" (the mode where the autothrottle won't save your a$$ if you let airspeed get too low).
                      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                      Eric Law

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                      • not being a pilot of any sort, i'm wandering into unfamiliar territory, but even as an ignorant non-pilot, it would appear that these turds failed to realize their physical surroundings, and relied instead on what HAL had on his screen.

                        sure, they may have misunderstood what HLD meant, but for F*ck sake, they were in a boeing, where the throttle levers physically move. so instead of pulling up to maintain altitude when he realized they were too low and too slow, and apparently not knowing why, perhaps the monkey behind the wheel should have taken a gander at the two levers??? nah! that would have made sense.

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                        • Actually they should have reacted earlier than that. When you're "too low and too slow" the *first* thing you do is add throttle - possibly even firewall it depending on circumstances. Then you watch airspeed and very carefully use the yoke/stick to raise the nose and try to achieve a positive climb rate, making sure airspeed does not decay more.
                          Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                          Eric Law

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                          • Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
                            Here, right at 3 minutes in the video simulation...is when any reasonable PIC paying attention either adds a serious amount of power or hits TOGA and goes around altogether.

                            The fact that they passed this critical moment without changing anything (except the PIC's increasing back pressure on the stick) is just ridiculous.

                            Never mind the piss poor hand flying up till then...
                            I want to pile on WITH you...

                            In fact you have given the guys some nice leeway- they are 10 knots too slow...I'm thinking the private pilot test standards ask you to demonstrate +/- 5 knots on final...

                            So, even if you are tired, fat, dumb and happy and enjoying the beautiful late-day illumination on a crystal clear day....

                            5 knots is extremely sloppy by airline standards right (conceding that gusty winds would not qualify)...so you are giving them 10 knots.

                            I've made my jokes about my MSFS landings and you are exactly right...even after two beers- the scene was real familiar EXCEPT I SWEAR that I pour on the coal about at the time you mention- versus the four of them who waited several MORE seconds.

                            Yeah- even if you cut these guys some slack for being tired- they really DOUBLE screwed the pooch!
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                              for F*ck sake, they were in a boeing, where the throttle levers physically move.
                              Not only that, but in this case the levers physically moved back to idle when the PILOT (not the autothrust) pulled them back to idle.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                              • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                                I want to pile on WITH you...

                                In fact you have given the guys some nice leeway- they are 10 knots too slow...I'm thinking the private pilot test standards ask you to demonstrate +/- 5 knots on final...

                                So, even if you are tired, fat, dumb and happy and enjoying the beautiful late-day illumination on a crystal clear day....

                                5 knots is extremely sloppy by airline standards right (conceding that gusty winds would not qualify)...so you are giving them 10 knots.

                                I've made my jokes about my MSFS landings and you are exactly right...even after two beers- the scene was real familiar EXCEPT I SWEAR that I pour on the coal about at the time you mention- versus the four of them who waited several MORE seconds.

                                Yeah- even if you cut these guys some slack for being tired- they really DOUBLE screwed the pooch!
                                I mean, there is being loose with the speed, flying sloppy, flying drunk on MSFS in your underwear on a Sunday night, and then there's this.

                                Not only do they pass that moment without doing a damned thing differently while everything continues to go completely to sh*t, a FULL 15 seconds pass before anyone even touches the throttles! And as was pointed out earlier, it wasn't even the PIC!

                                They have the blood of those dead on their hands.

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