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*Another* pilot incapacitated due to pressurization problems?

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  • *Another* pilot incapacitated due to pressurization problems?

    A small plane carrying a prominent upstate New York couple was unresponsive for hours before crashing Friday off Jamaica’s coast.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  • #2
    N900KN was the aircraft which was delivered this year.

    [photoid=7789065]

    This photo (with credit to the photographer if that means anything) was the main photo on Fox News earlier today when the story broke.

    On Flightaware, someone posted ATC audio with the aircraft that makes it sound definitely like hypoxia.

    A TBM-700 from New York to Florida has lost communication with air traffic control and overshot its destination by >250 miles. NORAD F-15s are investigating.

    Comment


    • #3
      An unresponsive small private plane that lost contact with ground controllers Friday morning during a flight from Rochester, N.Y., to Naples, Fla., has crashed into the sea off the island of Jamaica.

      Jamaican Defense Force Civil Military Coordinator Major Basil Jarrett confirmed to Fox News Friday that the plane crashed into the water 14 miles northeast of Port Antonio, Jamaica.

      Early reports indicated there were three people on the plane. Jarrett did not provide any information on who was aboard, but said Jamaica has dispatched a rescue team to the crash site.

      A U.S. C-130 aircraft is also flying over the crash site and a U.S. Coast Guard cutter is on the way, according to Guard Petty Officer Jon-Paul Rios.

      "None of us have found anything at this time," Rios said Friday at about 4:40 p.m. ET.

      FlightAware, an aviation tracking website, identified the plane's tail number as N900KN. FAA records show the plane is owned by a company based at the same address as a real estate firm in Rochester. The firm, Buckingham Properties, is owned by developer Larry Glazer, who also is president of the TBM Owners and Pilots Association.

      New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said in a statement Friday afternoon that Larry and Jane Glazer were among the dead in the crash.

      “The Glazers were innovative and generous people who were committed to revitalizing downtown Rochester and making the city they loved a better place for all,” Cuomo said. “I offer my deepest condolences to the Glazers' family and friends during this difficult and trying time."

      Rick Glazer said that his parents were both licensed pilots. He told The Associated Press he can't confirm they were killed, adding that "we know so little."

      An unresponsive small private plane that lost contact with ground controllers Friday morning during a flight from Rochester, N.Y., to Naples, Fla., has crashed into the sea off the island of Jamaica.

      Comment


      • #4
        Windows frosted over... what else could it be but pressurization failure?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Windows frosted over... what else could it be but pressurization failure?
          Maybe a sticky outflow valve (pressurization). I have seen those valves full of nicotine, from people smoking tobacco.
          Another reason NOT to smoke inside the airplane, nicotine can ruin outflow valves and gyroscopes (air driven gyros)
          A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
            Maybe a sticky outflow valve (pressurization). I have seen those valves full of nicotine, from people smoking tobacco.
            Another reason NOT to smoke inside the airplane, nicotine can ruin outflow valves and gyroscopes (air driven gyros)
            Even in an airplane that is just 5 months old?

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • #7
              Crazy rampant parlour speculation:

              They asked to descend to 18,000, not the classic 10,000.

              Could that mean a partial failure of pressurization?

              Of course, that might be a dangerous choice if you go on to loose all pressurization.

              Then again, the explanation may simply be that they were not functioning that well.

              And someone needs to ask why they didn't just declare an emergency or 'threaten' to declare an emergency and demand lower. (See sentence above).
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Exactly my thought, 3we.

                They said they had a problem and requested 18000. Even more, they were offered a higher "lower" and they replied "well, we will need lower than that".

                The ATC was 100% correct, in "legal" terms, but a bit more of proactivity would have not been bad. "Problem" "Nedd descent to 18000" "Need lower than that" should have fired some alarm in the ATC's brain.

                Ok, it was the pilot's duty to declare an emergency, so the pilot WAS at fault if he knew the nature of the problem and didn't do it (or at least threaten to do it, as 3we said). And the ATC didin't need to expedite that request because there was no emergency declared.

                But more proactivity by the ATC could, and probably would, have saved these pilots lives. We are bit comlicated to give you lower right now, expect in in 10 minutes. Does it work? What's the nature of your problem? Is it a pressurization problem? Do you need priority? and, finally, depending on what the pilot responds, the classic "Do you want to declare an emergency?" If it's clear that he needs lower NOW (have pressurization problem, says he can't wait 10 minutes, etc...) but they are too, hmmm, ¿shy? ¿reluctant because of the possible consequences? ¿confused by hypoxia?, to declare an emergency, the ATC can go as far as proactively declaring the airplane in emergency. "900KN, I declare you in emergency", expedite a descent to 12000 NOW", and starts clearing the airspace.

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Not that the controller would really be expected to think of this, but... should the reporting of a problem and a request for 18K itself have been considered an indication the pilot was possibly not thinking straight?

                  Think about it: in those circumstances, what problem could you have that would be solved by flying at 18K feet? If you think there's a traffic conflict, ask for +/- 1K or maybe 2K. Controls, fuel, engine problem... head for the nearest airport ASAP. Smoke or fire? Head for the nearest airport even faster. Pressurization problem? 10K is the most likely place to go.

                  I can't think of one thing (except maybe a bizarre hijack situation) where 18K would be the desired altitude to correct a problem.
                  Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                  Eric Law

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Over the years, there have been quite a few examples of 'lousy assistance' from ATC...stuff that from the arm-chair in the parlour seem kind of obvious.

                    JMO- but the words "we have an issue" from an aircraft should probably prompt "do you need to declare an emergency?" from ATC.

                    And I agree- "we need to descend" might make me want to ask if there were pressurization issues.

                    This even has similarities to Pinnacle four one oh it dude. "We need to descend", "Sorry I can't let you lower", "Ok, we are unable to maintain altitude and ARE descending- do we need to declare an emergency?"

                    Of course, in the litigious USA, I know ATC will state the mantra- we are here to separate aircraft- and have no business assuming the liability of trying to help with situations for which we are not equipped nor trained.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here we might have a rare situation: cruise level pressurization failure in a single engine turboprop. The radio message may have meant that he was unable to hold altitude at a comfortable AoA, perhaps due to a power issue. Assuming the a/c is pressurized by bleed air, what happens when you lose bleed air pressure on a single? Could it slowly decompress the cabin while you are focused on the engine issue?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Evan...where's your black and white thinking?

                        The pilots have a power problem so they are worried about a comfortable AoA and what altitude they can maintain?

                        Have you counted the number of engines on this plane, or are you well above 10,000 feet without pressurization?

                        When the one engine you have is acting bad, you almost always want to be heading towards an precautionary landing at the earliest reasonable location.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                          Evan...where's your black and white thinking?

                          The pilots have a power problem so they are worried about a comfortable AoA and what altitude they can maintain?

                          Have you counted the number of engines on this plane, or are you well above 10,000 feet without pressurization?

                          When the one engine you have is acting bad, you almost always want to be heading towards an precautionary landing at the earliest reasonable location.
                          Well, I mean they are having trouble holding altitude and don't know yet what the problem is, but let's say it is a power problem and it is seriously affecting bleed air output. The pilot (a GA pilot, mind you) wants to descend to FL18 and see if he can cruise there, land at destination and have it looked at then. There is one engine (I counted) so there is no redundancy (unless there is some kind of ram air back-up). So any power issue would have an affect on pressurization, would it not?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, there might be many issues that might make a pilot want to descend to troubleshoot. But that's not the point.

                            The point is that, out of those many, there is ONE that can also make the pilot be mentally affected or, as they say, be conscious but not so usefully so.

                            In that case, expect the pilot to perform as a usefully conscious pilot would is, well, not very useful. If the ATC is not proactive to help them, likely they will not be able to help themselves.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              Well, there might be many issues that might make a pilot want to descend to troubleshoot. But that's not the point.

                              The point is that, out of those many, there is ONE that can also make the pilot be mentally affected or, as they say, be conscious but not so usefully so.

                              In that case, expect the pilot to perform as a usefully conscious pilot would is, well, not very useful. If the ATC is not proactive to help them, likely they will not be able to help themselves.
                              Gabriel, In the scenario I am describing, even if ATC queried them on the nature of the problem, they would have reported a performance issue and requested a lower altitude. The pressurization issue would have been overlooked until it brought on hypoxia. In other words, if they knew they had a pressurization failure they would have requested 10,000 but if they had a performance issue the resulting pressurization issue would have been a stealth factor.

                              Which makes me ask, how dangerous is a single engine pressurized a/c?

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