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  • Originally posted by elaw View Post
    By following the training & qualification procedures specified by his employer for becoming an A320 pilot?
    Hmm...

    Good question.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Have you been drinking 3WE's koolaid?
      Bad news, Evan, it's not my Koolaid.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Do you really think the pilot of AF447 didn't have the most basic airmanship and pulled up ignorant of basic stall dynamics?
        Yes, maybe. Either that or, upon losing the speeds and having the controls suddenly and unexpectedly transferred to him, he freaked out and reacted in a way that having studied the UAS procedure would have been hardly a lot of help. You will never practice and learn all the abnormal and emergency procedures until they come out like second nature (except the BASIC ones like how not to stall, how recover from a stall, and V1 cuts). A few sim hours every six month is simply not enough.

        Anyway, we both (and even 3WE) agree that we want both: basic airmanship and procedures. What I have been always saying is that one is a prerequisite for the other, and some accidents seem to show that the prerequisite was not there to begin with and follow with the other. And the prerequisite is not the procedures.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • You might enjoy reading this month's air&space magazine where an article discusses airline mergers and covers the mergers of crews from different airline cultures. it is online at airspacemag.com.

          This is a paragraph where a pilot shares his experience with procedure vs flying. I think it is relevant because airlines have different expectations from employees.

          “They were seat-of-the-pants pilots,” says Bud Cochran, a 30-year veteran of United who had amassed nearly 18,000 hours in the Boeing 737 by the time he retired in 1998. In 1968, when Cochran was hired, he shared the cockpit with former Capital pilots, who he describes as “good to excellent pilots who flew the airplane first and worried about the procedures second.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            Yes, maybe. Either that or, upon losing the speeds and having the controls suddenly and unexpectedly transferred to him, he freaked out and reacted in a way that having studied the UAS procedure would have been hardly a lot of help. You will never practice and learn all the abnormal and emergency procedures until they come out like second nature (except the BASIC ones like how not to stall, how recover from a stall, and V1 cuts). A few sim hours every six month is simply not enough.
            First of all, there are only 6 or 7 of them, UAS being one of those. Yes, we can expect them to become instinctive. Secondly, the pilot is not alone up there. The other pilot is part of something called CRM, which is what procedure is all about. When both pilots fail on procedure, there is a big problem with the culture.

            Anyway, we both (and even 3WE) agree that we want both: basic airmanship and procedures. What I have been always saying is that one is a prerequisite for the other, and some accidents seem to show that the prerequisite was not there to begin with and follow with the other. And the prerequisite is not the procedures.
            We all agree on all of that and I have never disagreed with that. Since AF447 I have said that procedures must be followed when they are available (unless unforeseen circumstances contradict them). That does not contradict or interfere with basic airmanship in any way. Disregard for procedure, even if it wasn't needed in certain cases, becomes an accident waiting to happen. You agreed with me on that. 3WE has consistently disagreed with me on that. Somehow he has turned my demand for procedure and CRM into a disregard for basic airmanship. If we can all agree with your paragraph above, then argument over.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
              ...procedures must be followed...
              That would be the issue. It's called black and white thinking.

              ...and it's not only because absolute statements are almost always wrong.

              ..and yeah, I see your additional qualifying statements, but it's still an over insistence that if someone deviates a bit within solid fundamentals, it's suddenly all wrong.

              Try to be open minded- perhaps, due to startle factor, panic, disorientation or fatigue, someone might deviate a bit from the memory checklist...but maybe they can ***choose cruise power and a good attitude (because they do that daily)***, then pause for a moment to analyze what the hell is going on, pick the right memory checklist or maybe even get out and read the damn QRH if there is uncertainty as to what the problem is.

              ***Insert any number of other instances, such as "initiate a C-172M-style manual go-around in your 737-236A"
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • Indonesian investigation officials announced today the following:

                - The F/O was flying
                - He was French
                - The aircraft climbed 5000' in 30 seconds before descending again

                They also confirmed that the preliminary report has been sent to ICAO but will not be released to the public.

                So they must now know what happened. The ICAO must now know what happened. If there was a FBW issue or other technical issue involved we would be seeing an emergency AD and/or Airbus/operator bulletins. They can keep details secret from the public but not from the industry. Thus far nothing has emerged. If nothing is issued over the next days we can assume this was pilot error.

                This need to keep the truth from the public is typical of the region but it will only fuel fear and speculation about the safety of the aircraft. I have to wonder if it isn't done to protect the operator and the CAA from accusations of negligence. Hopefully a leak will emerge soon or the ICAO will not play along.

                If Air Aisa is running a substandard pilot certification/training program, the public has a right to know this immediately.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Evan
                  Since AF447 I have said that procedures must be followed when they are available (unless unforeseen circumstances contradict them).
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  It's called black and white and grey thinking.
                  Fixed.

                  ..and yeah, I see your additional qualifying statements...
                  But they don't register in your mind or get included in the quote. You can't quote people out of context and have a valid argument.

                  maybe even get out and read the damn QRH if there is uncertainty as to what the problem is.
                  Wrong. Always get out the QRH to determine what the problem is and to ensure necessary CRM steps are taken once the aircraft is stabilized and urgent AVIATE/NAVIGATE/COMMUNICATE tasks are managed.

                  Your attitude is all wrong 3WE. But the QRH is part of the job.

                  (By the way, the Q stand for quick.)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    Wrong. Always get out the QRH to determine what the problem is and to ensure necessary CRM steps are taken once the aircraft is stabilized and urgent AVIATE/NAVIGATE/COMMUNICATE tasks are managed.
                    Ok, we've established a healthy climb and are entering some first class thunderstorms at a much safer altitude than 10 seconds ago...Get out the book, Joe, we need to figure out if we've been in a wind shear, and whether I should keep flying or you should be flying, whether we need to ask for a turn away from the weather, but remember, any memory you have of how to fly a 737-200 is wrong...

                    ...and forget any basic memories you have that reading books while flying in severe thunderstorms, albeit with a little altitude, might be a questionable thing to do.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      Get out the book, Joe, we need to figure out if we've been in a wind shear...
                      I said what the problem is, not was. And of course, the PF always flies. The PNF reads the QRH checklist if there still is a problem. There is CRM. It's not a big Cessna.

                      Comment


                      • The Co-Pilot was flying at time of crash.

                        On Thursday, Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee, which has been analysing the plane's black boxes, said that prior to the crash, the aircraft had climbed fast in an area packed with cumulonimbus -- huge clouds that pilots try to avoid.

                        They also revealed that the Airbus A320-200's less experienced French co-pilot, Remi Plesel, was flying the plane when it went down, rather than Captain Iriyanto, a former fighter pilot who had around 20,000 hours of flying time.

                        "The second-in-command was the pilot flying," chief investigator Mardjono Siswosuwarno told reporters in Jakarta, disclosing details from a preliminary report into the crash.

                        He said the captain sat on the left and acted as "the monitoring pilot".

                        Gerry Soejatman, a Jakarta-based independent aviation analyst, said that while there was nothing unusual about the co-pilot being at the controls, the question was whether the captain took the right decision when the plane got into trouble.

                        - Sharp climb -

                        "The captain has a choice whether to let the co-pilot continue flying and he does the trouble-shooting, or he takes control of the aircraft and allows the co-pilot to do the trouble-shooting," he told AFP.

                        He said it would not be clear whether the pilot made the right choice until more analysis of the plane's black boxes -- the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder -- had been conducted and made public.

                        Investigators' comments that the plane climbed sharply before crashing echoed those made by Transport Minister Ignasius Jonan last week.

                        In 30 seconds, it rose from 32,000 feet to 37,400 feet, then dipped to 32,000 feet, before descending for around three minutes when the black boxes stopped, said investigator Ertata Lananggalih.

                        They also said the plane's stall alarms were going off for four minutes before the crash.

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                        • I wonder, if the crew reverted to their native tongues when they where in the thick of it or if they maintained communication in English?

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                          • This sounds like a hell of a problem/ I have seen pilots pulling CB from the rear panels too

                            The pilots of AirAsia Flight 8501 cut power to a critical computer system that normally prevents planes from going out of control shortly before it plunged into the Java Sea, two people with knowledge of the investigation said.

                            The action appears to have helped trigger the events of Dec. 28, when the Airbus Group NV A320 plane climbed so abruptly that it lost lift and it began falling with warnings blaring in the cockpit, the people said. All 162 aboard were killed.
                            A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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                            • The stall warning system aboard the AirAsia Airbus A320 that crashed near Indonesia after encountering violent storms in late December sounded moments after the jet began a steep ascent and continued for more than three minutes until the jetliner impacted the Java Sea, crash investigators say.

                              Based on flight recorder data, investigators now know the A320-200 was cruising at 32,000 feet when it suddenly veered left and began a sharp ascent to 37,400 feet before plummeting into the sea. The copilot was at the controls when the jet began its steep climb, although the captain took over from the less experienced pilot at some point before the crash, investigators with Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee said at a press conference in Indonesia today.

                              Before the crash, which killed all 162 aboard AirAsia Flight 8501, the pilots had asked ATC for a climb to FL 380 to avoid towering storms. That request was denied due to conflicting traffic. The jetliner then climbed 5,400 feet without warning in the span of about 30 seconds, bleeding speed rapidly as the stall warning sounded.
                              Read more at http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/a...2bQ5GqG1yrc.99

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • Quite a difference in experience.

                                The co-pilot, with 2,247 hours of flying experience, was at the controls and talking to controllers while the captain, who had 20,537 hours, was monitoring, said Mardjono Siswosuwarno, the lead investigator of the crash. The account was the first description of the last moments of the flight.
                                Indonesia won’t release a preliminary report on its investigation into Flight 8501 because fact-findings could change rapidly, Tatang Kurniadi, head of the commission, said Thursday. Indonesia sent the preliminary findings to all countries in the investigation on Jan. 28, Kurniadi said.
                                In the event of a malfunction or loss of power, the flight protections will shut down and leave the pilots to fly the plane manually. That appears to be what happened before Flight 8501 entered the steep climb and stalled, the two people said.

                                Investigators are still trying to determine why the pilots would cut power to the flight augmentation computers by pulling a circuit breaker in the cockpit.

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