Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

India joins China's lead to not pay EU Carbon tax, Russia may join

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • India joins China's lead to not pay EU Carbon tax, Russia may join

    India will call upon local airlines to boycott the European Union's carbon-offsetting tax, as an ongoing row over a recently-instated tax on flights in and out of Europe has sparked discontent from several nations and heightend fears of a trade war.


    The pressure on EU is certainly on now that India joins China's lead. India even went so far to warn that it would retaliate if its carriers are barred from EU's air space. In the mean time, Russia may also join the move. It's pretty certain that the tax cannot be enforced if China, India and Russia all refused to pay. The most powerful tool for EU to force the airlines to pay the tax is to ban them from flying thru/to EU, but if Russia, China and India respond in kind and ban EU carriers from flying thru their airspace, the effect to EU airlines will be devastating. To fly from Europe to anywhere in East Asia (Japan, Korea, ASEAN, Australia), they have to fly over at least one of the three countries. The only way to work around that is to fly over Alaska (like back in the 1960s) or to deviate southward all the way to the Indian Ocean to avoid the sub-continent.

    For example, a southern deviation to avoid India would add 1000km (about 2hrs) to LHR-SIN and an Alaskan deviation to avoid Russia would add 3000km (about 5hrs) to LHR-NRT. 777-200LR would be in great demand if it comes down to this.

    Moreover, the article states that Indonesia is contemplating a response as well. The inability to fly over Indonesian airspace would effectively cut BA off from Australia (except for the code sharing flights with QF). Any deviation from SIN to Australia would require an uneconomical routing to fly all the way around Samatra Island over Indian Ocean.

    The more interesting twist is that India and Indonesia do not have much to lose by defying EU. They probably have even more chips to play in this game than China, as EU is China's largest trading partner and Chinese economy relies heavily on exports. For India and Indonesia, Air India is not able to compete with the European and the Gulf carriers on flights to EU or North America anyway. Garuda only has 3 weekly flights into EU air space. The economy of both countries do not heavily rely on EU while EU is trying to borrow money from anyone who can provide. In the article, India pointed out explicitly that "We have the power of the economy; we are not bleeding as they are", which means India may be willing to retaliate outside of the aviation scope. As for Russia, we all know that Putin freely use its supply of natural gas to EU as bargaining chip any time, and it doesn't really need anything from EU. If EU doesn't want the natural gas, China, Korea and Japan will gladly buy them up from Russia.

    It would be interesting to see if Brazil also takes action. It definitely has the power to cripple TAP and Iberia, and impact any EU carriers operation into the Andes region and Argentina.
    Next:
    None Planned


  • #2
    I hope all countries outside the EU refuse to pay this tax.

    It's ridiculous already that the EU over-taxes its citizens and companies, it's beyond ridiculous if it thinks it can tax other countries' airlines even when they are not flying within the EU.
    TAP - Transportes Aéreos Portugueses

    Voe mais alto. Fly higher.

    www.flytap.com

    Comment


    • #3
      W Ok, yup, we'll see this tax repealed, and soon.

      Indian carrier have nothing but gains to reap from this. AI and 9W will willing pay the taxes if it guaranteed a monopoly on the route.

      If I were any other nation that has seen my national aviation industry ravaged by foreign carriers, I would do the same.

      Now, if only the world could highly tax flights from Dubai...
      Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CathayPacific View Post
        http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3167...ine-tax-eu.htm

        In the article, India pointed out explicitly that "We have the power of the economy; we are not bleeding as they are", which means India may be willing to retaliate outside of the aviation scope.
        I am not in favour of the tax but I find this comment a bit over the top. Living standards in Europe are still a long way ahead of those in India. If the Indian Government really has such a powerful economy then maybe they should give their Domestic poverty issues a bit more attention.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tsv View Post
          I am not in favour of the tax but I find this comment a bit over the top. Living standards in Europe are still a long way ahead of those in India. If the Indian Government really has such a powerful economy then maybe they should give their Domestic poverty issues a bit more attention.
          I see your point, and the basis of your argument, but I find your statement a bit out of place. Keep in mind, in the context of the statement, we are discussing economies (and more specifically, health of said economies) not poverty levels. While India has a 'poorer' population it does have a 'booming' economy with a much higher positive growth rate i.e. businesses are growing, infrastructure is needed/expanding et al. Quite the opposite is in effect in the EU where recession is in full swing.

          Local poverty, while a factor, is not a major one in this equation. The Indian population, while poorer than their European counterparts, are likely to get richer due to their economy that is still growing. The same cannot be said of the EU if current conditions prevail for decades to come.

          But, I agree with you on point here. The Indian government does need to seriously discuss and deal with the poverty levels within India. It's really tragic to see the potential of the nation, to understand the hurdles that need to be crossed, and to see the lackadaisical efforts of the Indian government. And, to be honest, this 'attitude' on their part is really counter-productive. It's one thing to think it, and another to say it.
          Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

          Comment


          • #6
            Saudia Arabia joins the fray...

            Saudi Arabia ordered its national airline not to comply with European Union emissions-trading rules in protest against the bloc’s decision to include non-EU carriers in its carbon market, two people with knowledge of the matter said.

            The kingdom, OPEC’s biggest oil producer, has notified the 27-member bloc of the decision and discussions are ongoing to reach a compromise, said the people, who declined to be identified because the information isn’t public. Khalid al- Khaibary, a spokesman for the civil aviation authority in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, declined to comment when reached by phone yesterday.

            http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...ion-rules.html
            It was a matter of time, and by this time, it's surprising that other carriers/nations have not joined more vocal opposition to the laws.
            Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
              It was a matter of time, and by this time, it's surprising that other carriers/nations have not joined more vocal opposition to the laws.

              Bills are working their way through the US Congress to shield US airlines from this tax.


              It is quite funny to think the EU might have avoided all this debate by simply increasing the sales tax on aviation fuel.

              Comment


              • #8
                This is all bunch of BS. I'm not pro EU and I hope it falls a part. They do more harm then good. I hope all airlines in the world will ignore this tax and don't pay. This is just another way that EU is greedy. I hope US will ignore this one.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by justLOT787 View Post
                  (...)They do more harm then good. (...)
                  *lol... maybe for Americans. But certainly not for Europeans

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                    *lol... maybe for Americans. But certainly not for Europeans
                    Not for us in the UK Peter. EU dictates are pushing our prices up almost daily in Britain. Add to that the fact that Eurocrats in Brussels are trying to change our laws, raise our taxes (our own government is managing that quite well thanks !) and force us into dropping the UK Ł and adopt the Euro.
                    I for one would be more than happy to see us out of the EU.
                    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      EU is a joke it's as same as the Soviet Union but a bit more tolerant. EU destroys currencies, countries, cultures; EU is rally a bad example. Europe has to may different cultures to be one and personally 2020 is when EU will collapse and countries in EU's currency zone will hurt. England, Poland is smart for now not to have same currency as every one else, that makes you strong, smart. And countries like France, Germany, Italy, and Spain only wish they had their own currency.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Does anybody here seriously think we Europeans (yes, that includes you Brits too ) would be better off without the EU? You got to be kidding. The process of unification has kept Europe without a war for the longest time ever in history.

                        By the way - justLOT787 - you need to get your act straight and decide if you want to be an American or Polish and if you tell me you are a Polish-American, my next question will be: "If you can be a Polish-American, why should it not be possible for alomst 39 million of your former countrymen to be Polish-Europeans?" As for the Soviet Union reference, as somebody with Polish origins you should be ashamed of yourself and apologize to all your family and fellow Polish citizens who suffered under the torture of the Soviets and the Polish communists.

                        But this is digressing way off topic and the political discussion here should have stopped long ago...

                        As for the aviation related part, here is something to think and talk about: the EU is trying to reduce CO2 emissions by providing a cash incentive to airlines using economical aircraft. Isn't there something to be said for that?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Look Peter don't get emotional I'm just saying what I believe and what I see. Europe has not been in War since 1945 when it all ended, and there always has been conflicts EU or no EU. But I strongly believe that there will be a war in EU some day in the future, it will start with Spain, Greece and others trying to exit EU. As for comparisons of SU (soviet union) to EU it's SU who took away Poland's and Eastern Europe's power only for a while with one blow. EU is trying to do it slowly by eliminating borders, flags, symbols, currency, if it will on keep on going next thing will be your language, history, culture ect. Greece wants out of EU, so why are they being help prisoners to EU!!?

                          What EU is trying to do with the C02 tax is impossible because no one outside EU will follow EU's rules. Airlines don't have money to pay extra taxes, people that fly don't want to pay extra it's already expensive. What EU can do is build an engine that produces less Co2 or no Co2, but by charging extra when engines are being build cleaner each time and cleaner then 5 years ago wont help, it’s all just a political greed for cash, because the way I see it we will have engines that run on fossil fuel for a very long time.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dear justLOT787,
                            Well - this is an emotional topic, so why not be emotional about it? Here are a few quick facts for you, in case you don't know them already:
                            1. There has not been an armed conflict between any two countries who were members of the European Community (which later became the European Union), and as long as the EU exists, there won't be any war between the member countries (much like there won't be any more war between individual states of the US).
                            2. I don't know where you got the idea that any country wants to leave the EU. (If that's what Fox News is telling you, better change the channel... hahaha...) I am serious - with all the economical troubles we are having, there is no serious mention in any country about leaving the EU, not even Greece. They may want to leave the Euro currency at some point, but even that is not a real topic at the moment and I doubt it will ever happen.
                            3. The EU did not take away Poland's power. 77% of Polish voters chose to give some of the powers of their national government to EU institutions in the 2004 referendum on EU membership.
                            4. Eliminating borders and introducing a common currency are steps toward creating what I like to think of as the "United States of Europe" - only it will be called the "European Union". Are there checkpoints between states in the US? Do they not all use the same currency? No borders and using the same currency gives Europeans a very strong feeling of belonging together. We are all part of a big European family. Like any family we have our differences and problems, but we are still a family.
                            5. Language, history and culture will never be taken away by the European Union. Unlike the Soviet Union, whose aim it was to do just that, Europe thrives on its diversity. Much like Germany thrives on the very many cultures and dialects/languages spoken in its different regions and states.

                            Finally, as to the aviation-related stuff: the government does what governments can do - create an incentive. We burn fossile fuels, they destroy the planet and some day we will run out of them. There is nothing wrong with making people ask their airlines to lower prices by using efficient planes. Isn't that, how noisy planes were banned in Europe and the US? Now it's time for the fuel guzzlers to go. By the way - i'll be happy to pay 9 Euros for a short-haul and 24 Euros for a long haul flight if it helps the environment.
                            Oh - and as for the political greed for cash: the money we Europeans may possibly raise with the aviation carbon tax is very little compared to the rest of what European countries raise in taxes. It will not solve our financial problems. And if the politicians appear to be greedy, it's because we asked them to be greedy. After all, all countries in the EU are democracies and we voted these people into office

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                              Dear justLOT787,
                              Well - this is an emotional topic, so why not be emotional about it? Here are a few quick facts for you, in case you don't know them already:
                              1. There has not been an armed conflict between any two countries who were members of the European Community (which later became the European Union), and as long as the EU exists, there won't be any war between the member countries (much like there won't be any more war between individual states of the US).
                              2. I don't know where you got the idea that any country wants to leave the EU. (If that's what Fox News is telling you, better change the channel... hahaha...) I am serious - with all the economical troubles we are having, there is no serious mention in any country about leaving the EU, not even Greece. They may want to leave the Euro currency at some point, but even that is not a real topic at the moment and I doubt it will ever happen.
                              3. The EU did not take away Poland's power. 77% of Polish voters chose to give some of the powers of their national government to EU institutions in the 2004 referendum on EU membership.
                              4. Eliminating borders and introducing a common currency are steps toward creating what I like to think of as the "United States of Europe" - only it will be called the "European Union". Are there checkpoints between states in the US? Do they not all use the same currency? No borders and using the same currency gives Europeans a very strong feeling of belonging together. We are all part of a big European family. Like any family we have our differences and problems, but we are still a family.
                              5. Language, history and culture will never be taken away by the European Union. Unlike the Soviet Union, whose aim it was to do just that, Europe thrives on its diversity. Much like Germany thrives on the very many cultures and dialects/languages spoken in its different regions and states.

                              Finally, as to the aviation-related stuff: the government does what governments can do - create an incentive. We burn fossile fuels, they destroy the planet and some day we will run out of them. There is nothing wrong with making people ask their airlines to lower prices by using efficient planes. Isn't that, how noisy planes were banned in Europe and the US? Now it's time for the fuel guzzlers to go. By the way - i'll be happy to pay 9 Euros for a short-haul and 24 Euros for a long haul flight if it helps the environment.
                              Oh - and as for the political greed for cash: the money we Europeans may possibly raise with the aviation carbon tax is very little compared to the rest of what European countries raise in taxes. It will not solve our financial problems. And if the politicians appear to be greedy, it's because we asked them to be greedy. After all, all countries in the EU are democracies and we voted these people into office
                              Pete I don't know you and I wont judge you and I wont call any one names, you like me have right to your opinion but I think you only see things one way and chose to see the good things and not the bad things that are going on. Next thing you will tell me there is no such thing as Chinese spy in EU. You have to keep your eyes open it's common sense not to see things only one way. wake up!!

                              We are way off topic but

                              1. European Community? I hope you are talking about after WW2. Because a lot of these countries have killed each other in the past and now they are "friends" (EU). As far as no war between EU countries com on man history always repeats it self one way or another because generation forget the past.

                              2. Nothing wrong with FOX but you let CNN or BBC fill your head with nonsense ....hahahaha + Countries like Greece, Spain want to leave.

                              3. Yes Poland voted to be part of the EU and it's "family" but not for EU to slowly take away every ones power because EU is doing that.

                              4. There is no way in hell Europe will be the same as US in any way shape or form, Europe has just too many different cultures, differences and you can see and smell it now that some kind of conflict is brewing. I would love for the world to be in peace and conflict free but this is only temporary.

                              5. Have you ever been out side Germany or EU? EU wants every one to speak one language, have one history, one currency, no borders be one big "happy family"

                              On Topic - raising prices, coming up with new taxes will not solve Co2 problem I would love for every thing not to run on fossile fuel but it will not happen any time soon, fossile fuel is king that will not be replaced any time soon. But it will run out and if people don't come up with a new way to preserve energy then we are S.O.L

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X