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Why Planes Vanish

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  • Why Planes Vanish

    On the Nova program, the pilots insisted that transponders need an off button. But what I immediately wondered was "do they need the ability to turn BOTH off at the same time?" Under NexGen they say a plane with both transponders off, the plane becomes invisible. Which strikes me as a bad idea. Bad things happen to visible planes, but it seems like investigating incidents that happen out of radar range (in the present system) become very difficult and lengthy. They also said upgrading planes to be tracked minute by minute costs (I think) $50,000. Which certainly is a punch in the solar plexus for the biggest fleets. But maybe they should just upgrade the ones that need certification to fly routes where there is a lot of miles over poles or ocean. That is make a plane "certified" for a certain type of route. Seems to me the airlines don't need the maximum flexibility to fly any plane over any route. And, hey, that certification could be consumer knowable so one doesn't buy a ticket on "the cheap plane". Which I just know the brass at commercial airlines won't like, just as food corporations hate GMO labels.

  • #2
    Who knows...

    But my I-phone wants to track my location.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
      (...) Under NexGen they say a plane with both transponders off, the plane becomes invisible. Which strikes me as a bad idea. Bad things happen to visible planes, but it seems like investigating incidents that happen out of radar range (in the present system) become very difficult and lengthy. (...)
      Planes don't become invisible because the transponder is off. They are just harder to track, because there will only be a primary radar return and this is basically just a dot of light on a radar screen and the distance from the radar antenna is about the only information you will get that way...

      Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
      They also said upgrading planes to be tracked minute by minute costs (I think) $50,000. Which certainly is a punch in the solar plexus for the biggest fleets. But maybe they should just upgrade the ones that need certification to fly routes where there is a lot of miles over poles or ocean. That is make a plane "certified" for a certain type of route. (...)
      Well - that might be a minuscule safety improvement, but it would not have prevented the MH370 incident. That flight was never meant to leave the reaches of primary and secondary radar, so according to your plan would not have been equipped with that tracking device.

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      • #4
        Everything that draws current on an aircraft must be fused. That is basic aviation safety. The odds of an unfused transponder unit catching fire are probably better than the odds of a pilot pulling off a murdercide. But hey, get it to run off a AA battery and I'm with you.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Everything that draws current on an aircraft must be fused. That is basic aviation safety. The odds of an unfused transponder unit catching fire are probably better than the odds of a pilot pulling off a murdercide. But hey, get it to run off a AA battery and I'm with you.
          Fuse can be automatic, with no pilot intervention or access.
          AA batteries can catch fire and explode. They can also leak corrosive electrolyte.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #6
            Why is the transponder different from the black box. Do they have ability to turn off the black box? As for providing power, I'm pretty sure this problem has been solved or can be. I'm just saying, there needs to be safety features NOT accessible by some unstable human. Is everything on a plane built for discretionary disabling? I'm wondering if they sort the features into two classes, how do they draw the line? Can humans turn off the supply of breathable air at someone's discretion? I don't want to belittle humans, but the sad fact is that things can go badly wrong in a human brain. Undetected illness can turn a human into an insane ungruided missile. There just need to be thoughtful countermeasures. Which raises again the question of hierarchy in Asian culture. Is there any solution yet to the problem of people submitting to the rule of a superior, no matter what? Not that it is uniquely Asian, but we are a more rebellious sort on our side of the world.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
              Why is the transponder different from the black box. Do they have ability to turn off the black box?
              Hum, yes. Exactly that has been done before some suicidal pilot intervention.

              Can humans turn off the supply of breathable air at someone's discretion?
              Hum, yes. PACs off, outflow valve open. There are good reasons to suspect the the MH pilot might have done just that.

              By the way, pilots can also:
              - Turn the engines off.
              - Overload the airframe to destruction.
              - Fly into something (something just self-destructing like the ocean, or something more evil like another plane, a city center, an offices building, a stadium...)

              And there is very little, if anything, that can be done to stop them, except profiling.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #8
                If there is a choice between Machine and Man, I'll take Man any time - not just after watching "Terminator 2" and "I Robot". Things can go wrong in human brains as well as in technology, but I think it is much more sensible to bet on the human brain than on the technology. Also, there will never be 100% safety... but I'm afraid we all have to live with that. And remember, in the end all life ends in death

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  Everything that draws current on an aircraft must be fused. That is basic aviation safety. The odds of an unfused transponder unit catching fire are probably better than the odds of a pilot pulling off a murdercide. But hey, get it to run off a AA battery and I'm with you.
                  as i've said before, the cheap as chips SPOT locator runs on several AA batteries. of course, the industry would require exactly 23 years of testing costing precisely $231,987,650.74 to prove to the powers that be that this type of device is safe to use on commercial aircraft.

                  as for everyone's fear of lithium batteries, the inescapable truth is that they have been in widespread use since the 1970's, are used in the space program, and are used in implanted pacemakers and defibrillators. ever here of one catching fire inside a person? they are used in marine epirb units. ever hear of one of those bursting into flames? no? i didn't think so.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    Hum, yes. Exactly that has been done before some suicidal pilot intervention.


                    Hum, yes. PACs off, outflow valve open. There are good reasons to suspect the the MH pilot might have done just that.

                    By the way, pilots can also:
                    - Turn the engines off.
                    - Overload the airframe to destruction.
                    - Fly into something (something just self-destructing like the ocean, or something more evil like another plane, a city center, an offices building, a stadium...)

                    And there is very little, if anything, that can be done to stop them, except profiling.
                    Short observation: None of this sounds very comforting to me. A pilot is a human being, which means any human with access is able to do a lot of destructive things with things as they are. Tick, tick, tick.......

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                      Short observation: None of this sounds very comforting to me. A pilot is a human being, which means any human with access is able to do a lot of destructive things with things as they are. Tick, tick, tick.......
                      Yes, but they can also do good things if they have access:
                      - They can stop the CVR after an event to preserve information about an incident that would otherwise be deleted after 30 minutes.
                      - They can relieve the cabin of pressure in case of structural failure.
                      - They can stop the toxic fumes coming from the ventilation system.

                      And, as I said, if they want to be mean, the can be really mean using none of these things but just the ones that you need to give them access as long as you have human pilots: flight controls.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                      • #12
                        I remember the story of the pen holder screwed to the side of the cockpit of B52 bombers. You know the type, a metal plate with two spring loaded metal loops to hold the pens. $1.99 in your local store to you. Cost to the USAF ? Just less than $200 each !
                        Then there's medical equipment costs. When I first qualified as a paramedic we bought our own fishing tackle style fold out boxes from the local hardware store to keep our new kit in. We paid £9.99 each for them.
                        Then paramedicine came under the control of the NHS and our equipment was supplied by NHS licensed suppliers. We were issued with EXACTLY the same boxes, same manufacturer, same product code, same everything. Cost to the NHS ? £99.99 !!!
                        ......and THAT is why airlines don't fit equipment that could be of use.
                        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                          Short observation: None of this sounds very comforting to me. A pilot is a human being, which means any human with access is able to do a lot of destructive things with things as they are. Tick, tick, tick.......
                          Human beings can make mistakes and technology can fail... we can't do without either one of them. It's just a matter of finding a good balance.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as for everyone's fear of lithium batteries, the inescapable truth is that they have been in widespread use since the 1970's, are used in the space program, and are used in implanted pacemakers and defibrillators. ever here of one catching fire inside a person? they are used in marine epirb units. ever hear of one of those bursting into flames? no? i didn't think so.
                            I do not know if Li batteries are used in this device:

                            The AP (10/11, Leblanc, Salsberg) reported that Boston-area fire officials are urging the FAA to implement stronger e-cigarette regulations on airplanes “after a nicotine vaporizer accidentally started a small fire in the cargo hold of an airplane at Boston’s Logan International Airport.” Sen. Edward Markey has officially said he will “ask” the FAA about whether “electronic cigarettes should be banned on flights.”

                            Another AP (10/10) article reported that Massachusetts Fire Marshal Stephen Coan has forwarded his report on the fire to the NTSB, the National Association of State Fire Marshals, the International Association of Fire Chiefs, and Sens. Markey and Elizabeth Warren.

                            Source: AIAA Newslatter dated 10/13/14.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              Yes, but they can also do good things if they have access:
                              - They can stop the CVR after an event to preserve information about an incident that would otherwise be deleted after 30 minutes.
                              - They can relieve the cabin of pressure in case of structural failure.
                              - They can stop the toxic fumes coming from the ventilation system.

                              And, as I said, if they want to be mean, the can be really mean using none of these things but just the ones that you need to give them access as long as you have human pilots: flight controls.
                              "Relieve the cabin of pressure" Is that a theoretical situation? Or does it happen often enough to warrant resulting dangers? And if toxic fumes are in the ventilation, is that worse than having no oxygen? By the way, why do these smoke-filled cockpits happen if pilots can just turn off ventilation? I wondered with that Halifax crash why oxygen masks didn't drop on them like they theoretically drop on passengers (I say theoretically because I've listened to that spiel by the attendants every flight but not once saw it actually happen. Like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, I have to take it on faith of its existence. Never was told my any of my frequent flying friends and family of putting on that mask, either)

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