AirAsia flight missing

[Dispatch Dog]

What are you talking about and what-s the difference?
AF climbed 1500ft at 7000fpm peak, losing a good bunch of its airpseed in the process and placing the plane above its ceiling, so the situation was not sustainable, and when the stall warning sounded, they pulled up again and climbed another 500ft before fully stalling.

Ah yes, was thinking of another incident. Thank you both.

[T.O.G.A.]

somebody quickly explain (if you have a min) what might have happened here in non pilot terms if it was the same as the AF crash.
way i think of it with what i've read or seen)...Ice gets in the little pitot tubes (even tho these are heated) which give wrong airspeed indications...so plane is going faster than it thinks...pilot pulls nose up...but then it climbs too steep and then stalls....Is that right?
I'm not trying to speculate....im genuinely interested but the language you guys use is a bit perplexing to non pilots and i'd like to understand how this happens....if you dont wanna speculate on this one tell me in non pilot terms how it happened to the AF plane.

thanks

nobody knows if this is the same as AF. Lot's of similarties -true, but nobody knows. at this point it could be like aa587 where the tail fell off in wake turbulence. turbulence is the only commonality. Oh, and all aircraft where Airbuses but that is just a fact and not intended to flame anyone.

As for the pitot tubes, there are usually (I wont say always) four; one for capt primary, and one for his secondary times two for the first officer. The odds of all of them experiencing the same thing are low. How the crew interpret what they see or what the air data computers and flight managment computers say when they talk to each other will come out in the investigation. But if all four tubes were to freeze over simultaneously, my guess is that the last ram pressure would be trapped and the airspeed indicators would be locked. the aircraft could be standing still or breaking the sound barrier but the instruments wouldnt know. but that is is why tHere are usually four, to reduce the odds of this happening.

[Jpmkam]

More information on the CVR.

Warning alarms in AirAsia flight QZ8501 were "screaming" as the pilots desperately tried to stabilise the plane just before it plunged into the Java Sea last month, a crash investigator said Wednesday.

The noise of several alarms -- including one that indicated the plane was stalling -- can be heard going off in recordings from the black box in the Airbus A320-200's cockpit, the investigator told AFP, requesting anonymity.

"The warning alarms, we can say, were screaming, while in the background they (the pilot and co-pilot) were busy trying to recover," the investigator said, adding the warnings were going off "for some time".

The investigator, from Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee (NTSC), added that the pilots' voices were drowned out by the sound of the alarms.

The revelation came a day after Indonesian Transport Minister Ignasius Jonan said that the plane had climbed abnormally fast before stalling and plunging into the sea, as it flew on December 28 in stormy weather from Indonesia's Surabaya to Singapore with 162 people on board.

"In the final minutes, the plane climbed at a speed which was beyond normal," the minister told reporters.

[Gabriel]

I can't f***ing believe it. Are we reading news reports of Air Asia or Air France?

[Evan]

...why would they violate something so basic?...

...I blame something mechanical, weather or computer related...

Yes, I've been wrong about this before.

I'm going with zero CRM, procedural ignorance and total improvisation.

[Leftseat86]

I can't f***ing believe it. Are we reading news reports of Air Asia or Air France?

Practically verbatim...

I wonder if this was also another instance of dual inputs canceling each other or being missed.

[Drizzt]

I can't f***ing believe it. Are we reading news reports of Air Asia or Air France?

Yes, bad, very bad weather and planes going up too fast! I hope we'll find what's wrong in the two cases!
@@++

[3WE]

...until I hear otherwise, I am NOT going to believe that yet another set of highly-trained airline pilots intentionally but obliviously made strong and sustained control inputs that are consistent with the memory checklist for a great way to stall a plane...Yes, I've been wrong about this before.

I can't f***ing believe it. Are we reading news reports of Air Asia or Air France?

...ummm, until I read it in the final report?

Edit: Ok, I haven't seen any information that something didn't break in the severe weather.

[phoneman]

Joy Stick

Question: Can a joy stick located on a pilots left be disorientating during an emergency situation when the pilot is right handed, vice versa for the first officer? Also, what happens when there are opposite inputs to the joy sticks? ex. ascend/descend.

[Gabriel]

Question: Can a joy stick located on a pilots left be disorientating during an emergency situation when the pilot is right handed, vice versa for the first officer?

I don't think so.

Also, what happens when there are opposite inputs to the joy sticks? ex. ascend/descend.

If I'm not mistaken ,the two inputs are algebraically added. Contrary inputs of the exact same magnitude would cancel each other. Contrary inputs of different magnitude, the stronger one will win but will be degraded to the magnitude of the difference between both inputs. Inputs in the same direction will be added (but the normal limit will remain in place, so you can't do with both stick more than you can do with one). A "dual input" alarm will sound and there will be light indications too.

Unless... one of the sides press the priority switch (a button in the stick). Pressing the switch on one sticks inhibits the other stick. Last one to press the switch has control.

[Evan]

Question: Can a joy stick located on a pilots left be disorientating during an emergency situation when the pilot is right handed, vice versa for the first officer? Also, what happens when there are opposite inputs to the joy sticks? ex. ascend/descend.

There will be a synthetic voice "dual input" warning. Either pilot can deactivate the other stick by holding down the priority button for 40 seconds. During that it will have priority and the opposite pilot will see a red arrow on the glareshield. A synthetic voice "priority left" or priority right" message will also be heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKNJ-ABAPuY

All of this is to prevent inadvertant movement of the PNF stick or to deactivate a jammed stick. It is NOT designed to deal with combative piloting. That is what CRM is designed to prevent. Once CRM is lost, you're on your own.

[Gabriel]

Just to clarify, even holding the button for 40 seconds doesn't ensure that you have deactivated the other stick. The design assumes that only on priority button is held down at a time.

As I understand it:
1- We are both doing inputs (and never stop doing them) & nobody pressed the priority button: The are doing dual inputs (are algebraically added) "Dual input" alert).
2- I press the priority button: The other stick is deactivated. "Priority left (or right, my side)" alert.
2a- I release the priority button: Again we are in "dual input".
2b- I don't release the priority button, but the other pilot presses it: My sidestick is deactivated. "Priority right" alert. In the same way, I can at any time reactivate my stick and deactivate the other one by pressing my priority button.
3- I keep the priority button down for some 40 seconds:
3a- I release the priority button. We remain in "priority left" and the other side's stick remains deactivated, unless...
3b- The other pilot press his priority button. We go "priority right" and my stick remains deactivated until the other pilot releases the button before 40 seconds or I press my priority button at any time.

In any event:
1 No priority button pressed = both sidesticks have control ability and the inputs will be added if used at the same time.
2 More than one priority button pressed = the last one to press wins (until the other one becomes the last one to press).

[AVION1]

Is this an error or just an speculation or what?
Air Asia dropped at 11,000 ft/minute before crashing into the ocean.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/new-data-on-final-moments-of-airasia-flight-8501/

[brianw999]

Is this an error or just an speculation or what?
Air Asia dropped at 11,000 ft/minute before crashing into the ocean.


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/new-da...a-flight-8501/

Looks like it's from hard data, otherwise why quote a satellite source ? Quite what that source is though is not commented on.

[Evan]

Just to clarify, even holding the button for 40 seconds doesn't ensure that you have deactivated the other stick. The design assumes that only on priority button is held down at a time.

As I understand it:
1- We are both doing inputs (and never stop doing them) & nobody pressed the priority button: The are doing dual inputs (are algebraically added) "Dual input" alert).
2- I press the priority button: The other stick is deactivated. "Priority left (or right, my side)" alert.
2a- I release the priority button: Again we are in "dual input".
2b- I don't release the priority button, but the other pilot presses it: My sidestick is deactivated. "Priority right" alert. In the same way, I can at any time reactivate my stick and deactivate the other one by pressing my priority button.
3- I keep the priority button down for some 40 seconds:
3a- I release the priority button. We remain in "priority left" and the other side's stick remains deactivated, unless...
3b- The other pilot press his priority button. We go "priority right" and my stick remains deactivated until the other pilot releases the button before 40 seconds or I press my priority button at any time.

In any event:
1 No priority button pressed = both sidesticks have control ability and the inputs will be added if used at the same time.
2 More than one priority button pressed = the last one to press wins (until the other one becomes the last one to press).

This is what I mean about the intention behind the priority button. It is not there to engage pilots in a battle for control. It assumes pilots have solid CRM training and discipline and want to live. It is there for two main reasons:

- The opposite stick is not centered for some reason such as the PNF has inadvertently leaned against it.
- The opposite stick has jammed or malfunctioned.

The proper procedure for dual input is:

PIC: My airplane!
PNIC: You have control!