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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
    Probably not on the CVR. You'd certainly need the FDR, which some people already suggest to stop looking for because everything is crystal clear...
    If the CVR records the breathing of the copilot, I'm pretty certain it will record the flicking of the switch as well. On the other hand, I doubt that the cockpit door locking mechanism is a parameter recorded by the FDR.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pacoperez View Post
      Is really the suicide the only scenario that fits here? Is it unlikely that that person suffered some kind of attack that paralysed him but not killed him? (Because they could hear a breath all the time, isn't it?). I don't know, an aneurysm? An ictus?.....
      Two things work against this theory: why would he disengage AP and change (not a simple procedure) altitude and why would he disable unlocking the door from outside if it were a medical situation??

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
        There are, understandably, a lot of posts grasping at alternatives to murdercide. Nobody wants to accept that reality. But the facts we know are:

        - The descent had to be intentionally initiated.
        - No action was taken to arrest the descent.
        - There are no reports of alarms or warnings on the CVR, thus no rapid or slow-onset decompression, no AP disconnect, no master caution, etc.
        - The door lock switch must have been manually selected to the LOCK position.
        - The F/O was breathing 'normally' throughout the descent.
        - The CPT was loudly requesting entrance with no reply.

        So, form your theories with ALL this in mind please.
        I don't see how that contradicts the 2010 scenario. If that (germanwings too, by coincidence) FO had been alone in the cockpit at the time, that flight too would have been doomed.

        Interestingly, there was an article (Der Spiegel, again...) on Sunday noting that these things happen quite frequently - and are often not correctly reported:
        Die dramatische Landung eines Germanwings-Flugzeugs hat Konsequenzen: Nach Informationen des SPIEGEL arbeitet der Mutterkonzern Lufthansa an einem Warnsystem für giftige Öldämpfe. Die waren offenbar auch Grund für den Beinahe-Crash - was Germanwings aber bislang dementiert.


        Moreover - "breathing normally" - if I were to commit suicide under such circumstances, I'd probably be heavily stressed and panting like hell!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
          If the CVR records the breathing of the copilot, I'm pretty certain it will record the flicking of the switch as well. On the other hand, I doubt that the cockpit door locking mechanism is a parameter recorded by the FDR.
          But not the direction, in which the switch is flipped...

          Of course, if it was flipped immediately after the captain left, that could mean something.
          If it was flipped after a buzzer sounded on the other hand, it does not necessarily imply that it was locked with evil intentions!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            Exactly my thought too. If the other pilot was not able to return then the pilot in the cockpit was not incapacitated. Either that or nobody among the crew knew or had the access code.

            I am seriously starting to wonder if these secure doors cause more death than they avoid.

            As a containment, it should be immediately made mandatory what in some airlines is a policy: When a pilot goes out another crew member goes in. No person alone in the cockpit.
            I just watched the German press conference with the head of Lufthansa (mother company of Germanwings):
            - Germanwings and Lufthansa do not have a policy where another (non-flying) crew-member has to be in the cockpit if the pilot or co-pilot gets out (ie. for a toilet visit).
            - such a policy is not mandatory neither in Germany nor in Europe
            - to his knowledge no other major European airline has such a policy
            - some (but not all (?)) US airlines have such a policy (the question was asked by an american journalist)

            To a deliberate follow-up question he answered that of course Lufthansa company will re-discuss these procedures in cooperation with the local authorities (like DLR) for the future, once all details are known.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
              Moreover - "breathing normally" - if I were to commit suicide under such circumstances, I'd probably be heavily stressed and panting like hell!
              As a suicide counsellor that is not my experience, the taking of your own life may be a period of calm in a previously stressful existence. Its a way out, a relief, that's the whole point.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                There are, understandably, a lot of posts grasping at alternatives to murdercide. Nobody wants to accept that reality. But the facts we know are:

                - The descent had to be intentionally initiated.
                - No action was taken to arrest the descent.
                - There are no reports of alarms or warnings on the CVR, thus no rapid or slow-onset decompression, no AP disconnect, no master caution, etc.
                - The door lock switch must have been manually selected to the LOCK position.
                - The F/O was breathing 'normally' throughout the descent.
                - The CPT was loudly requesting entrance with no reply.

                So, form your theories with ALL this in mind please.
                = Murdercide.
                If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                Comment


                • I also agree on previous comment, he could have switch the door switch to lock position by mistake after faintness, trying to open the door, that's very common (the mistake).
                  To listen to breathing on VCR, its mean's it's strong breathing when you know the basic level of background noise in a cockpit ! Strong breathing can be a sign of faintness or a sign of delirium.
                  After, need to explain the action on altitude selector on the glareshied...

                  Comment


                  • From the flightradar24 forum:

                    "Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 we can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the "open descent" autopilot setting."

                    We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more data apart from the regular position/altitude data. These are the decoded ModeS (Downlink Format 20) frames which contain replies to interrogating radar requests (Upling Format 20). 09:30:48Z.651 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:48Z


                    Guess that partially-incapacitated FO was busy 'accidentally' deadbolting the door & not putting on oxygen

                    Arrow

                    Comment


                    • Air Malaysia

                      I now believe this is what happened to the missing Air Malaysia flight!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by phoneman View Post
                        I now believe this is what happened to the missing Air Malaysia flight!
                        I would think that 4 or more hours would be enough to break in by 200+ passengers?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                          = Murdercide.
                          I'm not with you there. The consequences of suicide on other people may not be in the forefont of the victim's mind. It's what others might call collateral damage. I know that sounds cold but you and I are not the suicidal one. This (and MH370) brings back the images in the Moorgate Tube Disaster. From Wikipedia:

                          The Department of the Environment report on the collision was published on 4 March 1976 and tests showed no equipment fault on the train.[5] Postmortem evidence indicated that at the time of impact the driver's hand was on the brake handle, rather than in front of his face to protect it.[6] Witnesses were interviewed; some passengers on the train reported that the train accelerated when entering the station, and some witnesses standing in the station reported that the driver, 56-year-old Leslie Newson, was sitting upright in his seat and looking straight ahead as the train passed through the station.[7] The state of the motor control gear as found after the accident indicated that power had been applied to the motors until within two seconds of the impact.

                          Newson had worked for London Underground since 1969 and the post-mortem examination did not find any evidence of a medical problem such as a stroke or heart attack that could have incapacitated him.


                          I think you can spot what may be similarities even if 38,000ft, 1000 miles and 40 years seperate the events. Flying was very important to these pilots. Its what they lived for and may therefore be the way they want to die. Doing what they liked doing best. But maybe I speculate too far.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Brainsys View Post
                            As a suicide counsellor that is not my experience, the taking of your own life may be a period of calm in a previously stressful existence. Its a way out, a relief, that's the whole point.
                            I admit I have little idea. However I know most suiciders pick a method that is quick and does not involve an 8 minute period of facing death and re-thinking the decision.

                            As a suicide counselor - regarding the last point - wouldn't it make more sense to switch off the A/P altogether and get the aircraft out of control as soon as possible?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Brainsys View Post
                              I'm not with you there. The consequences of suicide on other people may not be in the forefont of the victim's mind. It's what others might call collateral damage. I know that sounds cold but you and I are not the suicidal one. This (and MH370) brings back the images in the Moorgate Tube Disaster. From Wikipedia:

                              The Department of the Environment report on the collision was published on 4 March 1976 and tests showed no equipment fault on the train.[5] Postmortem evidence indicated that at the time of impact the driver's hand was on the brake handle, rather than in front of his face to protect it.[6] Witnesses were interviewed; some passengers on the train reported that the train accelerated when entering the station, and some witnesses standing in the station reported that the driver, 56-year-old Leslie Newson, was sitting upright in his seat and looking straight ahead as the train passed through the station.[7] The state of the motor control gear as found after the accident indicated that power had been applied to the motors until within two seconds of the impact.

                              Newson had worked for London Underground since 1969 and the post-mortem examination did not find any evidence of a medical problem such as a stroke or heart attack that could have incapacitated him.


                              I think you can spot what may be similarities even if 38,000ft, 1000 miles and 40 years seperate the events. Flying was very important to these pilots. Its what they lived for and may therefore be the way they want to die. Doing what they liked doing best. But maybe I speculate too far.
                              Well, maybe, maybe not.
                              there are clear differences, as in the underground case there is more evidence available. And the technology is different.

                              A dead-man switch (did London Underground have that in the 60s?) would maybe not be such a bad idea on aircraft... it could automatically unlock the cockpit door and maybe even initiate an automated landing attempt if not pressed within a given period of time inside the cockpit.

                              With such a device, it would be

                              • quite clear that everything the FO did was done intentionally and consciously
                              • no (big) problem to leave someone alone in the cockpit for a short period of time, as possibility to return would always be ensured in case of ... whatever.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mfeldt View Post
                                I admit I have little idea. However I know most suiciders pick a method that is quick and does not involve an 8 minute period of facing death and re-thinking the decision.
                                Most suicides don't involve jumping in front of trains or diving into the ground. Many are overdoses. It doesn't end quickly, they have this time of calm as they slip gently away. That's when they phoned us, (from that you may guess the organisation if you are in the UK), it was their time of calm and peace.

                                Hence that may translate as 8 minutes selecting the peak of his choice or 4 hours over the Indian Ocean if that was indeed another suicide mission. And don't forget in WW2 many, though not all, men flew happily to their certain doom.

                                This makes me speculate that the FA in the empty seat may, indeed, be a very good idea. It isn't as though a FA could overpower a delinquent pilot and safely land the plane (though I've seen a few stewardesses who could give a stone or two to this officer). No its their very presence would disturb, distract them from this time of calm. In other words while it wouldn't stop them committing suicide it may well persuade them that a commercial aircraft cockpit is not the place to do it. Hence less catastrophic results.

                                It all depends on how well we come to understand what motivated these people to do what they do. I am with those that agree that screening may filter some out - some are unstoppable in advance - and there is a danger that this and MH370 et al establish this as a way out for pilots.

                                Comment

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