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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France
As posted earlier, initiating a descent is the first thing pilots are trained to do in case of a loss of cabin pressure.
And without the FDR, there is no way to know for sure cabin pressure was not lost
- No high cabin altitude warning.
- No recorded "don your masks" message.
- No ACARS message.
Other than that, no, there is no way.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
And it would not be hard at all for a mentally-impaired person to move in the wrong direction.
But what causes the mental impairment but does not cause any aural warning in the cockpit? A decompressoin would cause an alarm. Then maybe it was smoke? So now your scenario is: The Captain leaves flight deck. Within a minute, smoke enters the cockpit, and the F/O selects the autopilot altitude to sealevel. The smoke then disorients the F/O, who in his last moments of semi-consciousness locks the cockpit door and then passes out. The captain can't get in, but the smoke does not continue into the cabin for another 8 minutes while the aircraft continues on its course and descent...
Well - this is wayyyyyy more unlikely than the suicide scenario...
- No high cabin altitude warning.
- No recorded "don your masks" message.
- No ACARS message.
Other than that, no, there is no way.
Okay, okay, I get it! It's incredibly unlikely.
OTOH, how many incidents have there been where the pilots have lost consciousness and until all the facts came out everyone said it could not *possibly* be a loss of cabin pressure because of lights, buzzers, verbal warnings, etc. etc. etc. and yet it happened anyway?
I can think of at least two times that's happened: Helios 522, and the Learjet carrying Payne Stewart.
The door has an access code and each crew member has its own "secret" PIN that falls under one of these categories: cabin crew PIN or flight crew PIN.
When someone tries to access the cockpit with the access code, the pilots inside can deny the request.
Access code + 1 cabin crew PIN + 1 flight crew PIN, the access cannot be denied.
This is not a description of the current system, but an idea for the future one.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
OTOH, how many incidents have there been where the pilots have lost consciousness and until all the facts came out everyone said it could not *possibly* be a loss of cabin pressure because of lights, buzzers, verbal warnings, etc. etc. etc. and yet it happened anyway?
I can think of at least two times that's happened: Helios 522, and the Learjet carrying Payne Stewart.
...and if I remember correctly, in both cases the planes continued at flight level until they ran out of fuel...
OTOH, how many incidents have there been where the pilots have lost consciousness and until all the facts came out everyone said it could not *possibly* be a loss of cabin pressure because of lights, buzzers, verbal warnings, etc. etc. etc. and yet it happened anyway?
I can think of at least two times that's happened: Helios 522, and the Learjet carrying Payne Stewart.
Both of which kept on AP until out of fuel, not with one pilot in the cockpit intentionally initiating a descent and the other one banging the door from outside.
Impossible? No. Unlikely? Yes, but then every accident is unlikely today. But when you compare the odds against the murdercide hypothesis....
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
Interestingly enough, though, HELIOS had one person trying to access the cockpit and somehow managing to do it just minutes before the crash.
I don't think this has anything to do with this case, but just trying NOT to select and interpret the evidence in a "confirmation bias" fashion.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
But what causes the mental impairment but does not cause any aural warning in the cockpit? A decompressoin would cause an alarm. Then maybe it was smoke? So now your scenario is: The Captain leaves flight deck. Within a minute, smoke enters the cockpit, and the F/O selects the autopilot altitude to sealevel. The smoke then disorients the F/O, who in his last moments of semi-consciousness locks the cockpit door and then passes out. The captain can't get in, but the smoke does not continue into the cabin for another 8 minutes while the aircraft continues on its course and descent...
Just curious as to what kind of smoke can cause the F/O to rapidly lose consciousness before he can get on the 02 or the smoke hood, within moments of the CPT leaving the flight deck when there is no smoke odor at all YET does not trigger the avionics bay smoke detection or register as a voltage anomaly or any other ACARS event?
No. Impossible. Unlike Helios 522, this was an Airbus A320 which produces a very noticeable warning when the cabin altitude exceeds 9550', regardless of how slowly that altitude comes up. Could the alert have malfunctioned? Yes. Unlikely? Very. Are we just playing games now? Possibly.
And for the record, the cabin altitude did sound on Helios 522 and was clearly heard on the CVR.
Just curious as to what kind of smoke can cause the F/O to rapidly lose consciousness before he can get on the 02 or the smoke hood, within moments of the CPT leaving the flight deck when there is no smoke odor at all YET does not trigger the avionics bay smoke detection or register as a voltage anomaly or any other ACARS event?
I was just trying to sketch out an unlikely, exaggerated scenario... I did not intend to cover every angle of that scenario. I don't think that the "smoke/odor-in-the-cockpit" incidents had anything to do with what happened in the case of 4U9525.
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