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Malaysia Airlines Loses Contact With 777 en Route to Beijing
Example of persons that are conscious but not "usefully" conscious:
This is a real hypoxia emergency above 26000ft (since at a point they are cleared down to FL260). It seems that the part where they descend to 11000ft is missing, but what a difference after they descend!
To be honest, I find the pilot on the second video "usefully conscious"
Speaking and other difficulties are to be expected.
Of course he lacked acclimatization, but even when fully (or rather, as fully as possible) acclimatized, live isn't easy at high altitude. Yet people climb Everest.
Messner's solo ascent of Everest without oxygen required appreciable acclimation - you don't just bundle him in a depressurised aircraft and expect him to survive at 33,000 feet simply because of his pedigree as an 'Everest climber'.
I don't think I suggested anything like that. "Everest climber" implies acclimatization, and by the way it typically lasts for several months.
First thing I mentioned was acclimatization in my post 1459 for climbs above 14,000' or for skiing too. Usually, as noted that was for a week.
I do have my name in the logs of almost a dozen "fourteeners" .. for the higher stuff spending time in base camps.
I can always tell when dealing with a denizen of the Empire. They seem to stay inside and read so many books they are experts on everything. I prefer to "do". Enjoy your book.
To be honest, I find the pilot on the second video "usefully conscious"
I seriously disagree.
Time of useful consciousness (TUC) is defined as the amount of time an individual is able to perform flying duties efficiently in an environment of inadequate oxygen supply.[1] It is the period of time from the interruption of the oxygen supply or exposure to an oxygen-poor environment to the time when useful function is lost, and the individual is no longer capable of taking proper corrective and protective action. It is not the time to total unconsciousness. The TUC has also been called Effective Performance Time (EPT).
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
The environment is completely different at high altitude compared to that at sea level - learn how the body acclimatises to the thinner air and the hypoxia
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
Gabe, there are sea of variations such as age, health for such stowage; salient things like if they have any protection from cold but mostly, they don't have to move and if they stay still not expending oxygen. Smoking would put the individual at extreme risk as would prior chemical exposures.
First thing I mentioned was acclimatization in my post 1459 for climbs above 14,000' or for skiing too. Usually, as noted that was for a week.
I do have my name in the logs of almost a dozen "fourteeners" .. for the higher stuff spending time in base camps.
I can always tell when dealing with a denizen of the Empire. They seem to stay inside and read so many books they are experts on everything. I prefer to "do". Enjoy your book.
Or that we spell acclimatisation with an 's'?
I will if I can find it.
Or some choose to stay inside and concentrate on their post tally instead.
I read many books precisely due to the opposite - I don't really regard myself as an expert on anything...we have internet forum residents and Wiki merchants for that. I enjoy 'doing' as well (in fact in support of your contention Kinesthetic learning style tends to be the most prevalent and highly effective) but am also of the belief that reading generally enhances and informs ones experiences.
A week concurs with me. I did however once climb Mt.Shasta after only one day's acclimatisa... acclimatizat...preparation, spent hiking in Lassen and got away with it. The highest I've climbed is Mt.Blanc which is a little under 16,000ft so I defer to your greater experience.
Gabe, there are sea of variations such as age, health for such stowage; salient things like if they have any protection from cold but mostly, they don't have to move and if they stay still not expending oxygen. Smoking would put the individual at extreme risk as would prior chemical exposures.
And don't forget luck. A lot of it.
I've said that these survivors are the rare exception.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
Time of useful consciousness (TUC) is defined as the amount of time an individual is able to perform flying duties efficiently in an environment of inadequate oxygen supply.[1]
While the voice in the video was of a pilot on duty, the question was not whether the pilot was able to perform his flying duties efficiently, but if (some of the 777) passengers would be able to do useful tasks at FL35. I still believe the performance demonstrated by the pilot, while probably lacking with respect to the definition of TUC (and probably not at FL35), was "useful".
It is the period of time from the interruption of the oxygen supply or exposure to an oxygen-poor environment to the time when useful function is lost, and the individual is no longer capable of taking proper corrective and protective action. It is not the time to total unconsciousness. The TUC has also been called Effective Performance Time (EPT).
Also, I can't rule if the pilot was unable to perform "proper corrective and protective action". I can hear he had some speaking/breathing difficulties, but a lot of people climbing high peaks have worse. You can just take a short flight to Mendoza and then a little and see for yourself
While the voice in the video was of a pilot on duty, the question was not whether the pilot was able to perform his flying duties efficiently, but if (some of the 777) passengers would be able to do useful tasks at FL35.
I agree.
My original comment (where I posted the video) was in fact headed in this same direction. That "not usefully conscious" is not "unconscious", not to mention dead. That average people at altitude can remain conscious and even do some things past the "official" TUC time. Because "usefully conscious" means that he can perform his pilots duty efficiently, without judgement impairment, and taking appropriate actions. A drunk driver would not be "usefully conscious", and yet most drunk drivers make their way home in one piece (but not reliably, that's the point).
I still believe the performance demonstrated by the pilot, while probably lacking with respect to the definition of TUC, was "useful".
Also, I can't rule if the pilot was unable to perform "proper corrective and protective action". I can hear he had some speaking/breathing difficulties, but a lot of people climbing high peaks have worse. You can just take a short flight to Mendoza and then a little and see for yourself
This pilot was not usefully conscious. The best corrective action he could take was declare an emergency, but then couldn't communicate efficiently the nature of it. Instead, he blamed inexistant control problems. There was an unattended siren sounding for minutes. He didn't recognize the high altitude problem nor take any action to correct it. His intention was to keep flying to Ypsilanti (its destination) what clearly shows that his judgement was impaired.
But yes, his performance was useful enough that he did declare an emergency and followed the clearance to descend. Had the ATC not identified the hypoxia condition and request the pilot to descend, the pilot performance would not have been useful. But "useful performance" is one thing and "useful consciousness" is another. To have "useful consciousness" your need to have much better than just "useful performance".
Oh, and by the way. Mendoza [thumbs up]
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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