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  • #31
    I don't agree with most that you say.

    In 99.9% of the emergencies or abnormal situations, it's more important that the pilot assess the situation correctly and reacts just fairly well than that he does so in a split second and with extreme precision. We are not talking about slicing a grape with a katana, catching a fly with chopsticks, or dodging bullets Matrix style.

    Look, after explaining all the theory and showing the Boeing flight tests, his description of how he thinks he would react to a rudder hardover in real life. Or how the L-1011 crew saved the day after a jammed stabilizer.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #32
      I think TeeVee also understands that it is not practical for a pilot to spend that much time in a simulator and unless they had one in their living room and dedicated leisure time to it, it would never work. Myself, I practiced six days a week and taught three sessions, much more than the average student and hit a peak. However, once retired from all of this, I am essentially useless and just another guy on the street.

      The more an aviator practices recovery he will develop the response (which is not by any way instinct), to a condition where it us more rote, the result of repetitive behavior. Clearly such fighting or recover skills are conditioned responses. The variables are how deeply they are conditioned and how often.
      Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
        he also talks about the need to react and then think. a valid point--to an extent anyway.
        AA's Capt Bryce McCormick, who, unlike Capt Vanderberg, actually got to deal with a very serious in-flight emergency (Google the Windsor DC-10 incident) has always preached the exact opposite. First do NOTHING, he used to say.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          I don't agree with most that you say.

          In 99.9% of the emergencies or abnormal situations, it's more important that the pilot assess the situation correctly and reacts just fairly well than that he does so in a split second and with extreme precision. We are not talking about slicing a grape with a katana, catching a fly with chopsticks, or dodging bullets Matrix style.

          Look, after explaining all the theory and showing the Boeing flight tests, his description of how he thinks he would react to a rudder hardover in real life. Or how the L-1011 crew saved the day after a jammed stabilizer.
          if you're talking to me, i never said anything about reacting with extreme precision. in fact, i'm not sure i have an opinion on it. i was relaying what vanderburg preached.

          i'm not going to re-watch all the videos, but in this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfNB...ature=youtu.be at 18:00 or so, he clearly advocates following what AA has a procedure that i suspect the company expects its pilots to have memorized

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          • #35
            Originally posted by guamainiac View Post
            I think TeeVee also understands that it is not practical for a pilot to spend that much time in a simulator and unless they had one in their living room and dedicated leisure time to it, it would never work. Myself, I practiced six days a week and taught three sessions, much more than the average student and hit a peak. However, once retired from all of this, I am essentially useless and just another guy on the street.

            The more an aviator practices recovery he will develop the response (which is not by any way instinct), to a condition where it us more rote, the result of repetitive behavior. Clearly such fighting or recover skills are conditioned responses. The variables are how deeply they are conditioned and how often.
            exactly. just re-read my last paragraph in post #30

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            • #36
              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              i'm not going to re-watch all the videos, but in this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfNB...ature=youtu.be at 18:00 or so, he clearly advocates following what AA has a procedure that i suspect the company expects its pilots to have memorized
              Correct, but "memorized" doesn't mean that you have to practice 8 hours per day during 25 years to get it right. It doesn't need the fine motricity skills that you need for juggling or to paint like Picasso.

              In fact, I would even question using the word "memorizing". Yes, he says "Is this nose high or nose low? Nose low, right. Quick, American Airlines procedure for nose low upset recovery".

              But when you understand the situation, understand your expected reaction, and understand the relationship between the two, is that really "memorize"? In the other video (umpet recovery) he spends a good time talking about AoA, energy, Gs, pitch moment and other stuff that sustain the procedure he is explaining. And, in the end, he doesn't say "apply the procedure by hart first". He says "fly the airplane first". And he even says "don't react too soon, crosscheck first to ensure the assessment first", and that sort of things.

              Sure, training is a vital part of the equation, because you do need the motor skills and a previously learn feel of how much of this will do how much of that.

              In other words, I think we are saying pretty much the same thing.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #37
                Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                AA's Capt Bryce McCormick, who, unlike Capt Vanderberg, actually got to deal with a very serious in-flight emergency (Google the Windsor DC-10 incident) has always preached the exact opposite. First do NOTHING, he used to say.
                Which in the case of many emergencies is good advice, but in the case of a 737 rudder hardover would most likely result in a crash with total loss of the hull and the lives of all on board.

                What it really comes down to is the following... for any given emergency:
                1) A correct response may or may not produce a favorable outcome.
                2) No response may produce a favorable outcome, but is much less likely to than a correct response.
                3) An incorrect response will produce an unfavorable outcome (by definition: if the response produced a favorable outcome it would not be considered incorrect).

                And timeliness of response may or may not be a factor in the outcome - but usually is to some degree.

                IMHO what captains Vanderberg and McCormick are saying is not contradictory.

                McCormick is saying that in general in the short term in an emergency, it's better to take the time to determine and implement the correct response than to react quickly but incorrectly.

                Vanderberg is also saying that reacting quickly and incorrectly will produce an unfavorable outcome. But he's also saying that in the case of the specific failures he discusses, that to get a favorable outcome you not only have to take correct action, but you have to do it in a timely fashion or it will not be effective.

                Or in other words you have to know your aircraft, its possible failure scenarios, and the correct actions to take in response to those failures, so you can take action quickly to bring the situation under control. And none of that contradicts what McCormick says.
                Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                Eric Law

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                  AA's Capt Bryce McCormick, who, unlike Capt Vanderberg, actually got to deal with a very serious in-flight emergency (Google the Windsor DC-10 incident) has always preached the exact opposite. First do NOTHING, he used to say.
                  Which of course is what they teach in the sim when the engine quits 1 knot before V-1...sit there and make no hasty decisions
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                    He has plenty of apostles at AA. Whether or not that's a good thing, I won't comment.
                    I'll try this again..

                    I take this to mean that some people think he and his fans are somewhat full of it.

                    My question is if his upset recovery suggestions are sound- or are they viewed as questionable too?
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #40
                      Related video on "advance" maneuvering. Stalls.

                      This is an FAA video and is the work product of the US Government and, as such, carries no copyright and is free for use. This video covers pilot training in...

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment

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