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  • Bizjet vs house = lose / lose

    Three died in the plane + 3 more in the house (mother + 2 kids)

    Sad

    Man on plane that crashed near airport in Maryland, killing 6, piloted plane that went off runway at same airport in 2010, officials say.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  • #2
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Three died in the plane + 3 more in the house (mother + 2 kids)

    Sad

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/us/mar...lane-in-house/
    Is it possible that this was part of the 0300 CET (Germany) radio news?!

    I'll read the cnn link later, I am just over
    Crossair 3597,
    also a very sad case. CFIT although GPWS was available and active!

    But let me add a little bit, just for the second.

    Sad are all landings which do not include "crew and pax healthy."

    Especially in small aircraft, and it was a small propeller in maryland (?), you are much more confronted with the area that you
    a) fly over
    and
    b) want to land in.

    In my eyes, propeller pilots must be able to replace a GPWS, which they almost never have, with
    precise knowledge of the landscape that is between t/o and landing!

    That includes flights by night, so this topographical map must be in your head.
    The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
    The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
    And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
    This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

    Comment


    • #3
      LH,

      The thread title says "BIZJET". So ok, not your 747, but "small propeller aircraft" doesn't belong here, and "GPWS" does belong here (it was an Embraer, you bet it had all the bells and whistles).

      Also, what makes you think it was a CFIT? For the descriptions of the witnesses, the very little information provided by the NTSB and the crash scent, it seems that this Flight Into Terrain was anything but Controlled.

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        LH,

        The thread title says "BIZJET". So ok, not your 747, but "small propeller aircraft" doesn't belong here, and "GPWS" does belong here (it was an Embraer, you bet it had all the bells and whistles).

        Also, what makes you think it was a CFIT? For the descriptions of the witnesses, the very little information provided by the NTSB and the crash scent, it seems that this Flight Into Terrain was anything but Controlled.
        Mate, excuse me. Indeed I have read the word jet in "bizjet", but only after my post (#2) was completed and sent to jp.
        And, I hate to quote myself, but I wrote "for the second" and something like "pls let me first finish reading about Crossair 3597."

        Now I have read the cnn link. They say it was an Embraer Phenom 100 jet:
        2 jet engines (PW617F), with 7,19 kN thrust each.
        length over all 12,82 m (42,09 ft)

        So, I agree, it was not a small propeller aircraft.
        But we agree, there are propellers that are bigger (cp the DC-3 from "Ice Pilots"), right?

        And I did not assume that the Embraer suffered a CFIT.

        I said, that Crossair 3597 was definitely a CFIT, with a jet (BAe 146).

        So let me compare two jets with GPWS,
        the Phenom 100 and the Crossair BAe 146. Let me quote CNN:

        "too low",
        "just came up short," one controller said
        .

        I don't know in how far the two destinations are comparable,
        LSZH for the Crossair 3597 and
        ? for the Embraer.
        LSZH is surrounded by hills. But the Crossair leftseat, born in Switzerland should have known that.

        I like to second what you've said. It is sad, also because in both cases, for somebody who is as far away from the location as me,
        it seems like the loss could have been prevented.
        The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
        The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
        And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
        This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

        Comment


        • #5
          No need to appologize. You just puzzled me how you started to talk about the CFIT of a BAe 146 in Switzerland and about the lack of GPWS in small propeller planes in what seemed to be a post in this thread.

          Too low? Planes are typically too low just before crashing.

          A witness said that he saw the plane coming too low and in a steep bank, and then went belly up.

          The NTSB said that the plane made a very narrow cut through one house (sounds to me like 90° bank), impacted a 2nd house and one wing was catapulted and crashed against a third house (sounds like cartwheeling).

          At the moment there is extremely little information as to rationally speculate about the causes. But since we are at it, I take stall and loss of control (yes, I am biased towards stall), maybe for spatial disorientation, or bad airspeed management, or icing, or maybe an engine problem was a contributor, or who knows what else. But I'm biased towards loss of control with some kind of stall.

          Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
          I like to second what you've said. It is sad, also because in both cases, for somebody who is as far away from the location as me, it seems like the loss could have been prevented.
          Very likely you are correct, if only for statistical reasons. The accidents are almost always preventable, and I am adding "almost" on the advice of my agronomist.

          Regarding sadness, almost every human death is sad. And that of course includes the occupants of this plane. But for some reason:
          - Unexpected deaths tend to be sadder.
          - Even sadder if they are accidental.
          - Even sadder if the victim is a third party not involved in the activity that generated the accident.
          - Even sadder if it involves young persons.
          - And even sadder if it is one mother and two babies (3 months and 3 years old). Think of the third children that was "school aged" and was not at home.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            [...]
            But since we are at it, I take stall and loss of control (yes, I am biased towards stall),
            maybe for spatial disorientation,
            or bad airspeed management, or icing, or maybe an engine problem was a contributor, or who knows what else. But I'm biased towards loss of control with some kind of stall.
            [...]
            - Unexpected deaths tend to be sadder.
            - Even sadder if they are accidental.
            - Even sadder if the victim is a third party not involved in the activity that generated the accident.
            - Even sadder if it involves young persons.
            - And even sadder if it is one mother and two babies (3 months and 3 years old). Think of the third children that was "school aged" and was not at home.
            Spatial disorientation (and if only temporarily) is fatal for leftseats of any airline worldwide, imho. And now the reason why I always talk about Crossair 3597, spatial disorientation...

            Are you superstitious? Or did that happen by chance? Some hours ago I have heard a Melanie Thornton song in the radio. The radio host said, she died in a plane, at the age of not quite 35 years.

            You don't have to visit my profile to know why I find this sad.

            Thus, I asked the internet about the flight number. And what do you guess? Crossair 3597!
            Two jets, and spatial disorientation twice? Among professional pilots? Are you serious?

            I have completely read the de dot wiki for Crossair 3597. And the age of the two Crossair pilots was what puzzled me.
            Leftseat: yob 1944
            F/O: yob 1976.
            And the F/O died because the Leftseat did not react to what his First Officer saw coming...

            Only one possible scenario. But taken from reality.
            The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
            This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

            Comment


            • #7
              LH, Are you feeling well? Do you realize that spatial disorientation is not the same than CFIT, rather it's almost the opposite?

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #8
                It's starting to sound more like UFIT (uncontrolled flight into terrain):
                Originally posted by NTSB/CNN
                Preliminary information from the cockpit voice recorder showed that the stall warning started sounding about 20 seconds before the recording stopped, Sumwalt said.
                Originally posted by NTSB/CNN
                Before the crash, the plane had slowed to 88 knots (about 100 mph) and witnesses saw the aircraft moving erratically up and down and from side to side, he said.
                Article:http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/us/mar...html?hpt=hp_t2
                Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                Eric Law

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  But I'm biased towards loss of control with some kind of stall.
                  So, apparently, here we have a very intelligent, highly respected doctor, with 4,500 hours of flying time, certified as a commercial pilot and as a flight instructor, approaching stall by failing to monitor airspeed, failing to avoid the stall despite the warning, pulling up relentlessly and stalling what appears to be a perfectly good airplane.

                  I'm biased towards FBW envelope protections.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just a few random facts from an FAA report on the EMB-500 available here: http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=FSB%20EMB-500

                    That aircraft has mechanical flight controls - no fly-by-wire.

                    And it stall speed clean is 100 KIAS and in landing configuration is 77 KIAS. Based on that and the NTSB figure of 88 knots, it sounds like maybe the pilot was slowing for an approach and forgot to put down the flaps?
                    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                    Eric Law

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by elaw View Post
                      And it stall speed clean is 100 KIAS and in landing configuration is 77 KIAS. Based on that and the NTSB figure of 88 knots, it sounds like maybe the pilot was slowing for an approach and forgot to put down the flaps?
                      Embraer lists: Vref ~ 90kts

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        So, apparently, here we have a very intelligent, highly respected doctor, with 4,500 hours of flying time, certified as a commercial pilot and as a flight instructor, approaching stall by failing to monitor airspeed, failing to avoid the stall despite the warning, pulling up relentlessly and stalling what appears to be a perfectly good airplane.
                        Or a momentary attention lapse, or something mechanical, or something health related...

                        ...excrement transpires.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lh-b744 View Post
                          is it possible that this was part of the 0300 cet (germany) radio news?!

                          I'll read the cnn link later, i am just over
                          crossair 3597,
                          also a very sad case. Cfit although gpws was available and active!

                          But let me add a little bit, just for the second.

                          Sad are all landings which do not include "crew and pax healthy."

                          especially in small aircraft, and it was a small propeller in maryland (?), you are much more confronted with the area that you
                          a) fly over
                          and
                          b) want to land in.

                          In my eyes, propeller pilots must be able to replace a gpws, which they almost never have, with
                          precise knowledge of the landscape that is between t/o and landing!

                          That includes flights by night, so this topographical map must be in your head.

                          wtf?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bobby,
                            It's either Google translate not working very well or......

                            ....someone is making two short planks look like a computer !!
                            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                              Spatial disorientation (and if only temporarily) is fatal for leftseats of any airline worldwide, imho. And now the reason why I always talk about Crossair 3597, spatial disorientation...

                              Are you superstitious? Or did that happen by chance? Some hours ago I have heard a Melanie Thornton song in the radio. The radio host said, she died in a plane, at the age of not quite 35 years.

                              You don't have to visit my profile to know why I find this sad.

                              Thus, I asked the internet about the flight number. And what do you guess? Crossair 3597!
                              Two jets, and spatial disorientation twice? Among professional pilots? Are you serious?

                              I have completely read the de dot wiki for Crossair 3597. And the age of the two Crossair pilots was what puzzled me.
                              Leftseat: yob 1944
                              F/O: yob 1976.
                              And the F/O died because the Leftseat did not react to what his First Officer saw coming...

                              Only one possible scenario. But taken from reality.

                              Double WTF!

                              Comment

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