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Cargo Plane crashes off Chicago Midway

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    That much is a pretty safe bet as he was flying solo. But why fuel exhaustion if he had just departed the airport? Somehow they forgot to refuel the plane and the pilot somehow missed this?
    I admit that thought crossed my mind too. But that wouldn't be the first airplane to takeoff without fuel. And it would be unusual to have just enough fuel to get off the ground and then run out. Unless one or more fuel caps were left off and the fuel siphoned out after takeoff.

    Another viable option would be misfueling, putting jet fuel into a recip. And jet fuel, with its higher flashpoint, might not have received an adequate source of ignition to start a fire in this case. I'm going to go with that as option "B," but my problem with this theory is that, being a freight run, the airplane probably did the same flights on a regular basis. That would mean it was an airplane well-known to the fuelers and they would be less likely to put the wrong fuel in it. Of course, this is being written by a former line boy who, after more than a year of fueling the same airplanes with the same pumps, put 80 octane in a 100 octane airplane one night. Luckily we caught it before any damage was done, but I know how easily something like that can happen.

    And maybe they were just all--well, almost all--very lucky and there were no sparks or other ignition sources sufficient to start a fire when the airplane hit the house. It could be a simple case of a mishandled engine failure where he let the airplane get below Vmc and it got away from him.

    Regardless of the cause, it was a tragedy for all involved.
    The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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    • #17
      JP (jet fuel) versus AV Gas ?

      I should know this, having worked the ramp for a bit, but does regular AV gas have a higher or lower flash point than JP. My understanding was that JP was just kero with some biocide and vapor additives and would have a lower flash point that gasoline.

      A few of the regular line boys, in tropical areas (98f) would toss matches into the catch trays to demonstrate how hard it was to light off the JP which we also used in our Zippo lighters.

      snydersnapshots rang a bell with his comment on the lack of fire which is usually the case in any other crash where you have lots of hot iron to provide the source of ignition ... there was no fire ... perhaps no fuel?
      Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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      • #18
        Which fuel is safer to be around ?

        Definitions.

        The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air.
        Transportation regulations distinguish fuels as either flammable or combustible depending upon their flashpoint. Flammable fuels have a flashpoint below 38°C. and combustible fuels have a flashpoint above 38°C. As an example, diesel fuel flashpoints range from about 50°C. to around 100°C making it relatively safe to transport and handle. Gasoline, by comparison, has a flashpoint of minus 43°C. Sparks and static electricity can easily ignite gasoline fumes.
        Avgas

        Aviation fuels fall into two categories, aviation gasoline, commonly shortened as “avgas”, and "jet fuel". Avgas is quite similar to automotive gasoline, except for its octane rating. Octane is the measure of the fuel’s resistance to pre-ignition (the chance of combustion occurring before the spark). The most common form of avgas has an octane rating of 100. The flashpoint of avgas is the same as that of automotive gasoline; thus there is significant danger of combustion if it is not handled carefully. There currently are significantly more aircraft that use avgas than use jet fuel. However, they are generally small GA aircraft that carry only a fraction of the fuel volume of that carried on large commercial jet aircraft.
        Jet Fuels

        The most common jet fuels in use are named Jet A (U.S.) and Jet A-1 (international). They are kerosene grade fuels with a flashpoint of 38°C. Commercially available Jet B has a lower flashpoint (minus 18°C.) but it also has a much lower freezing point making it very suitable for use in extremely cold environments. Fuels such as JP5 and JP7 have higher flashpoints and were developed to provide additional safety margins in specific military applications. All jet fuels are subject to rigorous testing for impurities and fuels that fail testing are resold for ground applications. All aviation fuels are supplemented with small quantities of additives such as corrosion inhibitors, static dissipaters, anti-freeze, and others.

        The crash aircraft N30MB was fitted with Lycoming 540 piston engines and would therefore have been using AVGAS.
        Last edited by brianw999; 2014-11-19, 21:49.
        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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        • #19
          Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
          Of course, this is being written by a former line boy who, after more than a year of fueling the same airplanes with the same pumps, put 80 octane in a 100 octane airplane one night. Luckily we caught it before any damage was done, but I know how easily something like that can happen.
          What would be the resulting scenario there? I imagine the engine would be knocking very noticeably on the takeoff roll and the pilot would reject, but if he didn't the engines should be running very hot in the air with reduced power and possibly some piston or ring destruction. That might allow the plane to fly for some time before the engines failed. Has this ever happened in flight?

          Re: the flash point/octane conversation, flash point is one thing and autoignition temperature is another. They are commonly confused. Jet A has a much higher flash point than AVGAS but a somewhat lower autoignition temperature (although both are still well above ambient). Essentially, both fuels can aerosolize in a crash regardless of flash point and both will require a source of ignition. Without that, neither is going to combust. BTW, the higher the octane, the lower the autoignition temperature. For example, diesel has a very low octane rating and relies on autoignition whereas gasoline has a much higher octane rating and requires a spark plug to ignite (unless it has an octane rating too low for the compression ratio and autoignites).

          So, with the plane nosing into a house like that I would expect a lot of AVGAS leaking and vaporizing and some hot manifolds or electrical shorts or even sparks from friction would ignite it. It seems to support the idea idea the fuel wasn't there...

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          • #20
            Is it a good idea to keep an airport open that is near-totally surrounded by residential areas?...You know a crash will occur, and when it does, it will likely take out a house.
            It's fine, and not any more dangerous than an airport anywhere else, or planes flying over anywhere else, for that matter.

            ...would this be allowed in a wealthy neighborhood?
            Yes.

            Do we need new FARs?
            As far as this crash goes, relating to airports being near places where people live, no.

            You might have a better case with runway over-runs in high density urban areas. But we've done a lot to address that already, it seems just installing EMAS everywhere fixes the problem.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by guamainiac View Post
              JP (jet fuel) versus AV Gas ?

              I should know this, having worked the ramp for a bit, but does regular AV gas have a higher or lower flash point than JP. My understanding was that JP was just kero with some biocide and vapor additives and would have a lower flash point that gasoline.
              Your comment got me thinking and I found some interesting info.

              Here is a site that gives some information about flashpoint.

              And this page on the website "Engineering Toolbox" says the flashpoint of gasoline is -45F and JetA/A1 is +100-150F.
              The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                What would be the resulting scenario there? I imagine the engine would be knocking very noticeably on the takeoff roll and the pilot would reject, but if he didn't the engines should be running very hot in the air with reduced power and possibly some piston or ring destruction. That might allow the plane to fly for some time before the engines failed. Has this ever happened in flight?
                You're right--in my scenario you wouldn't have a sudden or complete engine failure like you would with Jet A in a recip, but you would have some expensive work to do on the engine after the fact.

                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                Re: the flash point/octane conversation, flash point is one thing and autoignition temperature is another. They are commonly confused. Jet A has a much higher flash point than AVGAS but a somewhat lower autoignition temperature (although both are still well above ambient). Essentially, both fuels can aerosolize in a crash regardless of flash point and both will require a source of ignition. Without that, neither is going to combust. BTW, the higher the octane, the lower the autoignition temperature. For example, diesel has a very low octane rating and relies on autoignition whereas gasoline has a much higher octane rating and requires a spark plug to ignite (unless it has an octane rating too low for the compression ratio and autoignites).
                Interesting...

                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                So, with the plane nosing into a house like that I would expect a lot of AVGAS leaking and vaporizing and some hot manifolds or electrical shorts or even sparks from friction would ignite it. It seems to support the idea idea the fuel wasn't there...
                That's what I was thinking, and I'm really anxious to find out what they discover. Either no fuel or no fuel caps resulting in siphoning...
                The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

                Comment


                • #23

                  Quote = Me: Is it a good idea to keep an airport open that is near-totally surrounded by residential areas?...You know a crash will occur, and when it does, it will likely take out a house.

                  Quote = LeftSeat: It's fine, and not any more dangerous than an airport anywhere else, or planes flying over anywhere else, for that matter.
                  Bullcrap! There is a heightened risk around airports. 1) You are concentrating airplanes into narrow corridors compared to enroute so when they fall out of the sky, they are more concentrated 2) Takeoff and landing are the most critical phases of flight, in particular, you are close to the ground, secondly, you are giving engines and structures maximum stress, and making some very critical maneuvers with small error margins compared to cruise. 3) Think of actual crashes...those at cruise are somewhat more rare, and it's easy to think of ones "by the airport".

                  Now, do I feel it's an unacceptable risk? No, not personally, but politics is politics, and if a plane from the wrong airport crashes in the wrong neighborhood, there could certainly be rumblings and some stats that it is more dangerous just off the approach and departure ends of the runways.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
                    You're right--in my scenario you wouldn't have a sudden or complete engine failure like you would with Jet A in a recip, but you would have some expensive work to do on the engine after the fact.
                    Sadly, there's lots of misfueled crashes...for whatever reason, its not unusual to get to the runway and takeoff on "good fuel in your fuel lines" and then the engine goes to pot at a pretty bad time with no altitude to work with.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                      As to Richard and his love of the P210...again, context context context. For the time frame it was just about the coolest, most capable SINGLE engine aircraft around***...retractable gear, turbocharged, pressurized, anti-ice, weather radar, stormscope, could do almost everything an airliner could do (ok, don't get literal on me )...very cool for the time and very cool for a single, and, remember- singles cost a LOT LESS to operate- so that's cool too...so I get him being complimentary on his very capable P210.
                      It's matter of opinion, of course. It appears, though, that only just over 10% of 210 series buyers opted for the pressurized version, so either they found those "capabilities" unnecessary or at least not worth the premium. In any event, Mr Collins' incessant raving about that airplane was tiresome, especially his continued attempts at transposing his experiences in it to flying other airplanes ranging from Cubs to G-Vs. It seemed to me that JMac would have fired him years ago, had his father not founded the magazine in the first place.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                        ...Mr Collins' incessant raving about that airplane was tiresome...
                        Folks generally agree he talked about it a lot.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                        • #27
                          There are soooooo many tricks to get a tax write off.
                          Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                            Bullcrap! There is a heightened risk around airports. 1) You are concentrating airplanes into narrow corridors compared to enroute so when they fall out of the sky, they are more concentrated 2) Takeoff and landing are the most critical phases of flight, in particular, you are close to the ground, secondly, you are giving engines and structures maximum stress, and making some very critical maneuvers with small error margins compared to cruise. 3) Think of actual crashes...those at cruise are somewhat more rare, and it's easy to think of ones "by the airport".

                            Now, do I feel it's an unacceptable risk? No, not personally, but politics is politics, and if a plane from the wrong airport crashes in the wrong neighborhood, there could certainly be rumblings and some stats that it is more dangerous just off the approach and departure ends of the runways.
                            We don't actually have any stats or hard numbers to back this up, although someone could compile them from crash data. Even though I agree with you that there may be greater perceived risk by the public, and outcry after crashes near airports have occurred, given the # of flights that operate safely into and out of airports with no issues, and the number of times airplanes have crashed into homes when they were not close to their destination, I don't think that the increased risk of having a home near an active airport is significant in any way.

                            Case in point, do you know of any instance in the USA where an airport was shut down because of proximity to a residential area after a crash?

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                            • #29
                              I can't think of any airport that has been closed down after a crash.

                              What does piss me off is people who buy a nice cheap house which is cheap because it's near an airport......and then complain that it's near a nasty, noisy airport ! Bit like putting a loaded gun to their head, pulling the trigger and complaining that their brains are over there now and not where they should be, which would admittedly be quite a neat trick !
                              Reminds me of the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) who complained loudly about the ear shattering noise noise coming from the helicopter pad that a neighbour had built. The neighbour incidentally was Flávio Briatore of Benetton F1 manager fame. He was being interviewed in his garden by a TV reporter and claimed that the noise was so bad that you couldn't hold a conversation when the helicopter landed or took off.
                              His argument was rather shot down though when the reporter pointed out that the helicopter had taken off and landed 3 times during the interview yet the complainant hadn't said a word about it and the conversation had continued as normal. Good old Flavio could be seen cheekily waving over his garden fence at this point. Methinks someone in the TV company tipped him off ?
                              If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                                I can't think of any airport that has been closed down after a crash.

                                What does piss me off is people who buy a nice cheap house which is cheap because it's near an airport......and then complain that it's near a nasty, noisy airport ! Bit like putting a loaded gun to their head, pulling the trigger and complaining that their brains are over there now and not where they should be, which would admittedly be quite a neat trick !
                                Reminds me of the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) who complained loudly about the ear shattering noise noise coming from the helicopter pad that a neighbour had built. The neighbour incidentally was Flávio Briatore of Benetton F1 manager fame. He was being interviewed in his garden by a TV reporter and claimed that the noise was so bad that you couldn't hold a conversation when the helicopter landed or took off.
                                His argument was rather shot down though when the reporter pointed out that the helicopter had taken off and landed 3 times during the interview yet the complainant hadn't said a word about it and the conversation had continued as normal. Good old Flavio could be seen cheekily waving over his garden fence at this point. Methinks someone in the TV company tipped him off ?
                                I think this sometimes happens because they are shown an affordable house a fair distance from the airport during a time when that end of the runway is used for departures and then snap it up rather impulsively and are woken up on an uncommon day when planes are arriving from that end. People don't understand the nature of winds and runways. They might have a legitimate reason to complain but to the realtor, not the airport commission and people don't like to blame themselves for not doing their homework.

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