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777 Crash and Fire at SFO

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  • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    What color was your av gas?
    Shoot, I peed enough of it on the ground you'd think I'd remember-it's been almost 30 years since I've seen it. Pink?

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    • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
      What is the remedy for a situation in which you have four pilots who think the autothrottle is on when it is not. How can four guys qualified to be entrusted with a couple hundred lives be wrong about something so essential? What tells the pilot autothrottle is on? Something physical, right?
      The fourth pilot was in the cabin, not the cockpit.

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      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        What color was your av gas?
        I'll take blue for $500 Alex.

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        • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
          How can four guys qualified to be entrusted with a couple hundred lives be wrong about something so essential?
          the same way you can have three qualified "guys" in the cockpit doing a lot of wondering and the exact opposite of what they should have been doing while their jet plummeted toward the north atlantic on a stormy night...

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          • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            the same way you can have three qualified "guys" in the cockpit doing a lot of wondering and the exact opposite of what they should have been doing while their jet plummeted toward the north atlantic on a stormy night...
            What way is that? Is this groupthink? Is everybody thinking "If there was something wrong, someone else would be doing something". I hope that isn't the situation in our nuclear power plants. It isn't rocket science to say "The autothrottle isn't on. No one is making anything of it, so they must be out of their minds". I'd say, modestly, we have a foursome not worthy of the trust given them. Just watch all the pilots here in unison deny the obvious. We might as well have just one guy who can achieve the same degree of error as the four of them added together.

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            • Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
              I'll take blue for $500 Alex.
              After looking at the grades for a 172 available when I last flew as a pilot in 1985, I conclude it used 80/87, which was red.

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              • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                What is the remedy for a situation in which you have four pilots who think the autothrottle is on when it is not. How can four guys qualified to be entrusted with a couple hundred lives be wrong about something so essential? What tells the pilot autothrottle is on? Something physical, right?
                Yes, the physical thrust levers that physically move along with your physical hand which should be physically attached to them if you want to preserve your physical self.

                Also the PFD, known as the primary flight display for a reason.

                The remedy is that no one is above training and proficiency checks on basic airmanship, and frequency.

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                • As I thought about this crash, I began to think there was something Colganesque about it. They say the captain in Buffalo had failed some tests on the plane involved. That there was loss of speed approaching the air field. That some strong indications were ignored, one even overridden in that crash.

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                  • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                    What is the remedy for a situation in which you have four pilots who think the autothrottle is on when it is not.
                    The problem is NOT that they though that the autothrottle was on when it was not. The problem is that they thought that the autothrottle being on relieved them of their duty of monitoring the airspeed and take corrective action if needed.

                    From all the pilots on board, there is one that can NEVER be the Pilot In Command: Otto.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                    • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                      put very succinctly by a pilot friend of mine, "who gives a shit about the a/t working or not? two pilots were there supposedly flying the plane. clearly they didn't. so even if they find out that there was some kind of malfunction with the automation, the two guys up front are at fault. period. end of story."

                      he made this comment to me after speaking with a retired AA 777 pilot, with 10 years of flying the 777.
                      Well said!
                      The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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                      • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                        Blinded by a flash of light !
                        Singing a little Manfred Mann in Korean perhaps?
                        The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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                        • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                          What way is that? Is this groupthink? Is everybody thinking "If there was something wrong, someone else would be doing something". I hope that isn't the situation in our nuclear power plants. It isn't rocket science to say "The autothrottle isn't on. No one is making anything of it, so they must be out of their minds". I'd say, modestly, we have a foursome not worthy of the trust given them. Just watch all the pilots here in unison deny the obvious. We might as well have just one guy who can achieve the same degree of error as the four of them added together.
                          can't know for sure at this point, but it sure looks like piss poor training and no one paying attention, because, well, why should they if HAL is doing what he is supposed to be doing, right?

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                          • Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                            I'll take blue for $500 Alex.
                            Half of my hours are with pink gas, half are with blue. Yes, I have some gray hair too.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                              can't know for sure at this point, but it sure looks like piss poor training
                              @#%@#%!!!!!!!!

                              Before someone solos (we're typically talking 20 hours of flight time here, they need to be glancing at the ASI a good bit.)

                              You're putting out gear, you're putting out flaps, you might feel like pulling up a bit (to stretch your glide OR to start the round out/flare...airpseed ROUTINELY DECAYS!!!!!!!!

                              I'm tiring of the allegations that training is "so wrong".

                              You are supposed to @!#%@# learn this in the first five hours of your flight training!!!!!!!!!!!

                              Instead, I think we need some very small adjustments to training...

                              Like a 5 question quiz in the simulator right after completing the V1 engine cut and single engine approach to minimums:

                              1. What can happen when you pull up really hard and relentlessly (going slow helps too).

                              1a. Are there times when an Airbus will take your control input (of pulling up hard) and do EXACTLY what you ask, as opposed to INTERPRETING what it THINKS you ask.

                              2. Do you scan your six basic 'instruments' frequently- ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE GOING SLOWER AND CLOSE TO THE GROUND!!!!!!!!!? (I know it's a single panel now, but the data's all there in the same basic positions)

                              3. If the president of your country (or some uber powerful CEO) asks you to shoot an approach and go below minimums, what will you do?

                              4. Do you hand fly whenver it's reasonable to and there's skills to be brushed up?

                              5. What will you do to be sure that you don't pull a Comair, Pinnacle, Colgan, AirFrance and Asiana eye-rolling, how in the hell did they do that type of crash?

                              5 additional minutes to flight training and they're done! (Of course this still will not solve the extremely rare simultaneous big brain fart.)
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                                Half of my hours are with pink gas, half are with blue. Yes, I have some gray hair too.
                                There's something to be said for not being bold. Good rhyming, too!

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