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777 Crash and Fire at SFO

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  • Originally posted by Dispatch Dog View Post
    From that USA article and the briefing from NTSB Chariwoman Hersman:

    "In the last 2 1/2 minutes, from the FDR, we see multiple autopilot modes and we see multiple auto throttle modes..."
    Mode juggling. Improv comedy. A classic sign of approach sans briefing, no?

    Use this forum to discuss aviation safety related incidents, accidents, and other aspects of aviation safety.


    Use this forum to discuss aviation safety related incidents, accidents, and other aspects of aviation safety.

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    • Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
      This...also, isn't the pilot flying, when hand flying an approach on final, required to have his/her hand at the ready on the throttles, regardless of whether the auto thrust is engaged or not? This seems so basic.
      The only place I can recall seeing specific guidance on hand vs thrust lever position is during an autoland, where the pilot is supposed to guard the yoke and thrust levers in the event he needs to take over manually. On the airplanes I've flown, the requirement during a non-autoland approach is to have the autothrottle off by 50 feet above the ground; placement of the hands specifically is not addressed, though airspeed control IS addressed as part of the stabilized approach parameters outlined in the manual. The assumption here being if you're slow, you need to add power; telling the pilot to put his hand on the thrust lever to add power is a bit like telling the driver to "put your foot on the gas pedal when the light turns green..."
      The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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      • Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
        The assumption here being if you're slow, you need to add power; telling the pilot to put his hand on the thrust lever to add power is a bit like telling the driver to "put your foot on the gas pedal when the light turns green..."
        I think the assumption here was that if we're slow, the A/T is going to add power. What if the pilot is expecting the autothrottle to add power when that light turns green and meanwhile it's stuck in HOLD mode at idle? The levers are probably a more obvious indication then the PFD. I'd prefer the PF had a hand on those levers whenever possible below 1000'.

        But if I recall correctly you're a Bus driver (?) and of course it would be pointless there.

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        • Originally posted by Evan View Post
          What if the pilot is expecting the autothrottle to add power when that light turns green and meanwhile it's stuck in HOLD mode at idle? The levers are probably a more obvious indication then the PFD.
          If the airspeed is decaying and the magic isn't working, click the magic off and fly the damned airplane! You are correct in saying that the throttle position gives you a better feel for what is going on. That's one of the things I don't like about the Airbus way of doing things--though we're not going to rehash that debate in this thread.

          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          I'd prefer the PF had a hand on those levers whenever possible below 1000'.
          A wholeheartedly agree. I was just saying that I haven't seen anything in the book requiring that technique.



          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          But if I recall correctly you're a Bus driver (?) and of course it would be pointless there.
          Nope. If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
          The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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          • Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
            I'm struggling with the blinded by the light story. Where did it come from? The sun would have been very high in the sky and the idea of a laser just doesn't strike me as likely, particularly since they were gyrating all over the sky at that point. Does the CVR record anything like "what was that bright light? I can't see!"?
            Blinded by a flash of light !

            Bollocks !!

            That probably came from the same place as the big black dog that roams the world jumping out in front of car drivers just before said drivers have their road accident !!! Insurance assessors are rumoured to have clubbed together to hire a hunter to track and shoot the dog on sight.

            The only "Flash" in the Asiana cockpit would have been that final blinding realisation that they had f****d up.
            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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            • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
              Blinded by a flash of light !

              Bollocks !!

              That probably came from the same place as the big black dog that roams the world jumping out in front of car drivers just before said drivers have their road accident !!! Insurance assessors are rumoured to have clubbed together to hire a hunter to track and shoot the dog on sight.

              The only "Flash" in the Asiana cockpit would have been that final blinding realisation that they had f****d up.
              Sure you're not thinking of the Airbus dog hired to bite anything that tries to fly their planes?

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              • LOL. Yes, I remember that. The Airbus cockpit needed a Captain and a First Officer who inputted the computer data for the flight .......... and a dog.

                The dog was there to bite either of the other two if they tried to do something that the computer had not initiated. Something like that anyway.
                If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                • New York Times:

                  The crew told investigators in interviews that they believed the autothrottles were on, which would have relieved them of managing the plane’s speed, and left them with only its altitude and course to manage in the last moments of the flight, along with assorted other settings.
                  Uh... uh.. uh... what?! If these pilots are feeling this way, I think this is actually the problem here.

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                  • New York Times (continued)...

                    Some degree of automation is essential in planes that fly for 10 or 12 hours, or even more. But, Najmedin Meshkati, [an engineering professor at the University of Southern California and an expert on human performance] said, “We really need to refrain from irrational exuberance in embracing automation and new technology.” He said that from what is known, the crash here last Saturday was in a category with the 2009 crash of Air France 447 in the equatorial Atlantic on a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, which was due in part to mismanagement of automated systems.
                    Huh? I guess I missed that part.

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                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      New York Times:



                      Uh... uh.. uh... what?! If these pilots are feeling this way, I think this is actually the problem here.
                      We've gotta break from this supposition that because they thought they had the autothrottles on they felt they didn't need to monitor airspeed.

                      It's more subtle...

                      It's that you've made a zillion landings and the autothrottles have always been on- nailing your airspeed...the same ole routine!

                      I'd even bet that these pilots usually glance at the airspeed fairly frequently.

                      But on this particular day, at the same particular time, and maybe under the influence of a fun, easy landing, and a bit of fatigue, just this once, and for 40 seconds or so, they got lax on monitoring airspeed.

                      ...and I still bet that it felt very ok and looked reasonably ok.

                      By the way- I stalled on MSFS about 20 feet AGL on a power off, visual landing last night...that airspeed decay can be kind of insidious...slowly creeps up on you oh so gently during a nice gentle round out and hold off from a steep approach...
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                      • Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                        I'm struggling with the blinded by the light story. Where did it come from? The sun would have been very high in the sky and the idea of a laser just doesn't strike me as likely, particularly since they were gyrating all over the sky at that point. Does the CVR record anything like "what was that bright light? I can't see!"?
                        Deborah Hersman, who I think is doing a great job, said in tonight's presser that there was no remark on the CVR regarding a bright light. Ass cover blown.

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                        • I'm an old Cessna 172 pilot (and by old I mean I remember when the VASI was installed at my airport), so I did nearly all power off landings. Could someone satisfy my curiosity as to about how much thrust is needed to fly the glide slope at vref in an aircraft such as the 777? I realize it will vary with aircraft weight, winds, etc.

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                          • Originally posted by lapzdplt View Post
                            I'm an old Cessna 172 pilot...
                            What color was your av gas?
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • What is the remedy for a situation in which you have four pilots who think the autothrottle is on when it is not. How can four guys qualified to be entrusted with a couple hundred lives be wrong about something so essential? What tells the pilot autothrottle is on? Something physical, right?

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