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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Fixed.
    The background condition that led to the suicide might be different. The execution are copy-paste. And nothing was done on the execution side in the previous accident.

    Maybe it was "just" an African airline... Now it's a German one.

    Nonsense.

    The policy of "never alone" in the cockpit dates from before the LAM murdercide. And the weakness of the current cockpit door in this scenario are known at least since then.

    Nobody should be really surprised of this Germanwings event. It's just another instance of a known failure mode that was not addressed. It was just a matter of time, as it will be just a matter of time for the next one if it's not addressed.

    Addressing it will not prevent a "new" modus operandi. But hopefully it will reduce its occurrence and give more time until it happens for the first time.

    Once one modus operandi is established and proves successful, it's easy for others to copy if not addressed.

    Let's render this modus operandi unfeasible and let's give the murdercidals hard work to try and figure out a new one. It will happen, but let's not give it served in a golden tray.
    Sorry Gabriel but the new fact (and another one to be discussed beyond "never alone " policy) is having a FC member on medical leave flying this aircraft. The MO, as you mention, has been seen in previous situations

    If there were no flaws in the medical leaves controlling process we would probably not be discussing this case

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Observer View Post
      Sorry Gabriel but the new fact (and another one to be discussed beyond "never alone " policy) is having a FC member on medical leave flying this aircraft. The MO, as you mention, has been seen in previous situations

      If there were no flaws in the medical leaves controlling process we would probably not be discussing this case
      There is a medical leaves controlling process?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
        There is a medical leaves controlling process?
        I suppose so. If a FC member brakes his leg in a car accident, he or his doctor will notify the airline to keep him out for some period.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Observer View Post
          I suppose so. If a FC member brakes his leg in a car accident, he or his doctor will notify the airline to keep him out for some period.
          Well - if his leg is broken, he is quite obviously unable to perform his duties. But unless the doctor is a company doctor, he is bound by doctor-patient-confidentiality... not just for flight crews... for everybody...
          We can discuss forcing pilots to sign a disclosure-consent, so there doctor can report illnesses that affect a pilot's performance to his employer. HOWEVER, I think - and have already said here - that this will only stop pilots from seeing doctors, if they suspect they have a career-ending illness.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            None, they're the same thing...........

            What’s the Difference Between Depression and Manic Depression?
            By JOHN M. GROHOL, PSY.D.

            Sometimes people are confused about the differences between clinical depression and manic depression. And it’s no wonder — they both have the word “depression” in their names. That’s one of the reason’s manic depression’s clinical name changed to “bipolar disorder” many years ago, to more clearly distinguish it from regular depression.

            The difference is really quite simple, though. Manic depression — or bipolar disorder — includes clinical depression as a part of its diagnosis. You can’t have bipolar disorder without also having had an episode of clinical depression. That’s why the two disorders shared similar names for many years, because they both include the component of clinical depression.

            Such a depressive episode is characterized by the common signs and symptoms of depression:

            Feeling sad and unhappy for an uninterrupted period of at least 2 weeks
            Crying for no reason
            Feeling worthless
            Having very little energy
            Losing interest in pleasurable activities
            Because both depression and bipolar disorder share this commonality, somewhere between 10 to 25 percent of people with bipolar disorder are first mistakenly diagnosed with only depression. It’s only when the professional learns more about the person and their history do they later discover episodes of either mania or hypomania.

            Mania Distinguishes Manic Depression from Depression

            Mania is the distinguishing symptom of bipolar disorder and what differentiates it from clinical depression. A person with bipolar disorder has experienced one or more manic episodes (or a lesser form of mania known as hypomania). What’s a manic episode?

            Feeling overly happy, excited or confident
            Feeling extremely irritable, aggressive and “wired”
            Having uncontrollable racing thoughts or speech
            Thinking of yourself as overly important, gifted or special
            Making poor judgments, such as with money, relationships or gambling
            Engaging in risky behavior or taking more risks than you ordinarily would
            A person with is experiencing the lesser form of mania — hypomania — may only experience a few of these symptoms, or their symptoms are far less severe and life-impairing. A person with clinical depression experiences none of these symptoms.

            Depression isn’t the only disorder that is confused with bipolar disorder. Especially in children and teens, sometimes other disorders — such as attention deficit disorder (ADHD) — may be misdiagnosed, when the teen may instead be suffering from a form of bipolar disorder. That’s because children and teens with bipolar disorder may display hyperactive behavior — a common symptom of ADHD. Teens with bipolar disorder are especially more likely to engage in antisocial or risky behaviors, such as those involving sex, alcohol, or drugs.

            People who are diagnosed with the more severe form of bipolar disorder are said to have Type I Bipolar Disorder. Those diagnosed with the less severe form — those who have hypomanic instead of full blown manic episodes — are said to have Type II.

            Scientifically Reviewed
            Last reviewed: By John M. Grohol, Psy.D. on 30 Jan 2013
            Published on PsychCentral.com. All rights reserved.
            that was my point exactly!

            Comment


            • Latest news is that the sick note was for an eye defect. That is obviously career threatening and presumably why it didn't get to LH/GW. If this is true then the sick note issue didn't kill 150 (it wasn't 'cos he couldn't see the mountain or door lock) - it was possibly the reaction to the sick note.

              Enough to mightily depress a sane pilot methinks. Certainly enough to push a wobbly one over the edge.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                Well - if his leg is broken, he is quite obviously unable to perform his duties.


                But unless the doctor is a company doctor, he is bound by doctor-patient-confidentiality... not just for flight crews... for everybody...

                We can discuss forcing pilots to sign a disclosure-consent, so there doctor can report illnesses that affect a pilot's performance to his employer. HOWEVER, I think - and have already said here - that this will only stop pilots from seeing doctors, if they suspect they have a career-ending illness.


                For other reasons than a broken leg Mr.Lubitz's doctor issued a note that he was unable to perform his duties (we don't know the reason yet).
                But it is clear that he was not "medically-certified" at least temporarilly

                Sorry to disagree.
                1) every doctor (including company doctors) are subjected to patient-doctor-confidentiality
                2) we cannot force anyone to sign anything (mainly private aspects of life)


                But every doctor (including a company doctor) can issue a leave note for medical reasons without disclosing the motive.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                  (...)But every doctor (including a company doctor) can issue a leave note for medical reasons without disclosing the motive.
                  In Germany, the sick note gets handed to the patient to pass it on to the company. Here's where the F/O chose to ignore what his doctor told him... If the diagnosis was career-threatening, it wouldn't help, if the doctor just put him on medical leave without informing the employer on paper what the diagnosis was. I believe as soon as the F/O got the diagnosis, the ingredients for disaster were there and unfortunately he chose to act on them...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                    Sorry Gabriel but the new fact (and another one to be discussed beyond "never alone " policy) is having a FC member on medical leave flying this aircraft. The MO, as you mention, has been seen in previous situations

                    If there were no flaws in the medical leaves controlling process we would probably not be discussing this case
                    I don't dismiss the pre-execution part of the problem. That is new.

                    But the execution part is not new and nothing has been done to avoid recurrence. Things like "never alone" that is being widely implemented right now in the hindsight of this event (but wasn't implemented in the hindsight of the previous one even when already before then the FAA and some other non-USA airlines had realized of the risk and implemented it), or the improvements to the door lock system that I expect to see soon.

                    Going to the medical-leave, I see not much that can be done there, other than including a psychological check as part of the periodic medical check that all ATPs have to go through.

                    Adding a "must inform" policy for the doctors would make that those pilot not willing to comply with a leave will not go see the doctor or will go to any doctor and not tell them that they are pilots.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Brainsys View Post
                      Latest news is that the sick note was for an eye defect. That is obviously career threatening and presumably why it didn't get to LH/GW. If this is true then the sick note issue didn't kill 150 (it wasn't 'cos he couldn't see the mountain or door lock) - it was possibly the reaction to the sick note.

                      Enough to mightily depress a sane pilot methinks. Certainly enough to push a wobbly one over the edge.
                      Yes, but why push other 149 in the process...

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        I don't dismiss the pre-execution part of the problem. That is new.

                        But the execution part is not new and nothing has been done to avoid recurrence. Things like "never alone" that is being widely implemented right now in the hindsight of this event (but wasn't implemented in the hindsight of the previous one even when already before then the FAA and some other non-USA airlines had realized of the risk and implemented it), or the improvements to the door lock system that I expect to see soon.

                        Going to the medical-leave, I see not much that can be done there, other than including a psychological check as part of the periodic medical check that all ATPs have to go through.

                        Adding a "must inform" policy for the doctors would make that those pilot not willing to comply with a leave will not go see the doctor or will go to any doctor and not tell them that they are pilots.
                        I agree with you and Peter. Any medical condition that threatens the pilots' carreer will make them to avoid adequetly face the problem by avoiding doctors, hidding from the company or any other method we still don't know or thought about.

                        I don't know if there is an adequate response for that but given the involvement of life of all passangers, lifes of all crew members, image of all the companies of this industry, maybe it is time to really face the problem.

                        As you mentioned, it can happen with anyone in any company

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Adding a "must inform" policy for the doctors would make that those pilot not willing to comply with a leave will not go see the doctor or will go to any doctor and not tell them that they are pilots.
                          Just off the cuff, I can see it working if all pilots are put on a medical database upon receiving their ATPL. When seeing a doctor, the doctor would be alerted that the patient is a pilot and would have the responsibility to electronically report any relevant condition back into that database, while the operator would have the responsibility of monitoring it. I could see this working in Germany. I can see it falling apart through kneejerk Congressional nonsense in America. I can't see it working at all in someplace like Yemen. But why not start with the EU?

                          Of course, it would dissuade a 'bad' pilot from seeking medical care or they might seek it anonymously. This might be mitigated by a supportive operator policy that emphasizes retaining pilots through treatment rather than one that throws them off for illness.

                          Alas, there is no obvious solution for dishonesty.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            (...)Alas, there is no obvious solution for dishonesty.
                            As we can see from what happened to 4U9525...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              Yes, but why push other 149 in the process...
                              Because a suicidal person doesn't care about their life and consequently they don't care about anyone else's!

                              Comment


                              • Well, I suppose there's always this solution:

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