Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Evan View Post
    1) [...] Apparently they never made it to the second step.

    2) Because whatever happened, happened one minute after reaching cruise altitude.

    3) When a selected altitude is entered on the FCU and the knob is pulled out, that engages a descent in selected guidance mode. The selected guidance version of DES is OP DES, or open descent. It is essentially the same as FLCH.

    4) The AP logic 'gives up' whenever the parameters exceed the autopilot's safe capability. A rapid descent is well within those capabilities so the AP remains active unless commanded off.

    5) No, wrong. Nothing we know thus far points to a computer failure. If a frozen AoA vane scenario occurred, the crew would have been well and recently trained to handle it and would have had eight minutes to communicate the situation to ATC. This is almost certainly a case of crew incapacitation from the onset of the descent.
    5) Yes. On this early saturday, I am able to agree with you.
    The 4U-A320 was 150% in perfect shape, so, technical failure was not the case.

    As I posted earlier, this happening leaves me speechless. But nevertheless, there are a few words that I want to say.

    First of all, I have to direct a

    Merci pour votre travail.

    to all of our French friends who still help us to find the #9525 FDR. This includes a big Thank You to Mr. Brice Robin,
    a big Thank You to all the French who provide a bed and a breakfast for one or two of us,
    and a big Thank You to all French helicopter pilots, bus drivers, members of the Gendarmerie, et cetera.

    Thank You!

    As 64 passengers of #9525 come from where I live, Northrhine-Westfalia, I urge to know everything about it.

    The very last news about this insane incident. The 27 year old Co-pilot went to work last Tuesday although
    he did not have to?!

    What the hell ... fxx?!

    I mean, I am 10 years older than this youngster. Was there nobody, who said to this ill person, you are only good when you are happy.

    I mean, successful people always have an older friend,
    auf Deutsch: Mentor, Tutor, Berater, Fürsprecher,

    so, I can not believe that the older friends of this young co pilot would have been so very unsuccessful!

    I still have no idea how we were able to let this happen.

    PS: We all need older friends. Probably, this is even right for the #1 leftseat of my fav airline. He is not quite 12 years older than me. He comes from where I come from. And I don't wanna change with him. This must be an awful job in these days!
    Last edited by LH-B744; 2015-03-28, 00:56. Reason: We all need older friends.
    The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
    The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
    And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
    This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      How long until we have a terrorist lawfully armed and flying an airliner (as an airline pilot and flight deck officer) locking himself in the cockpit and then...?
      Originally posted by Theoddkiwi
      Could happen any day, but the same could said be for a bus driver or train driver, or person in a car, or a person with a gun in a coffee shop, this list is infinite.
      Whaaaaaaat????
      Can't you fill the blank in "..."? Ok let me do it for you:
      and then shooting the other pilot and using the plane as a weapon against the stadium where the Super Bowl is taking place.

      I don't see how something remotely similar can be done with a bus, a car or a gun in a coffee.
      Originally posted by Evan
      I've always opposed the idea of arming pilots. Bullets do not get along well with pressure hulls.
      As per above, I'm more concerned with how bullets and the other pilot's thorax and brain get along. Fuselage, being pressure hulls and all, are pretty bullet-proof in the sense that a bullet hole in the skin or window will do essentially nothing to it beyond the little hole itself.

      Originally posted by 3WE
      You know where this is leading, right?

      Let's just do away with pilots, and let Otto and ground-based monitoring folks operate the aircraft.
      That's NOT where I am leading at least. I just don't like the idea of guns in the cockpit. The latest cases in Africa, this one, and MH likely too, shows that pilots can be rogue. While that's certainly a minuscule exception, it can get so wrong that the risk is too much.

      And I am not talking of the simple suicide with "collateral damage", as was called here, but the mass murder using the plane as a missile where the suicide is the collateral damage.

      And, by the way, it seems that you don't even need the gun. Just wait for the other pilot to go to the toilet.

      But my point is that, without the gun, a flight attendant staying in the cockpit can be a pretty good obstacle. With the gun, it's just a minor nuisance that can be fixed in 2 seconds.

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

      Comment


      • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
        As I posted earlier, this happening leaves me speechless. But nevertheless, there are a few words that I want to say.
        LH, I cannot even start to imagine how must it feel to be an airline pilot this week, not to mention one that works in the same company.

        But I want to say. I trust you. All of you. I could board a plane right now and I would not for a second think that MY pilot will try to kill me. I am very aware that it can happen, but it's highly exceptional and the same can be said of many other bad things (including other ways to die in a plane).

        Pilots just don't try to harm their passengers. Period. And if there is an isolated exception, then doesn't change one inch the fact that pilots don't try to harm their passengers.

        Also, I can understand that nobody stopped the guy. Many times it's very hard to detect that a person is seriously considering to commit a suicide. Even if you think that the person is acting odd, that he might be depressed, or even that he might try something stupid, it's very hard to go beyond talking to that person and giving him some advice. What are you going to do? Call the chief pilot and tell him that you think that XYZ might commit murdercide? After all, chances are that 99.99% of the times you will be wrong.

        I had a case in my family (almost). The person hadn't the courage to jump in front of the train. But was standing in a remote place besides the railroad when he finally called crying for help.

        Where there any signs, early warnings? You bet it!!!! But nobody wanted to believe that he would do something like that and nobody went beyond talking to him. And, after the fact, we learned a lot of things that would have very clearly triggered a red warning but were unknown to us before (things like debts and vices).

        I think that there is room for improvement, both in the technical side (door lock system, "never alone" procedures) and in the human factors side (add recurrent psychological screening, perhaps more importantly provide counseling to prevent instead of detect).

        All that said, if the bullying stories are true, I will be angry with the pilots of this airline. To begin with, it's a bad thing to do, period. Then, while that can hardly be the cause by itself, it could have helped in his will to finish with his life, and even more importantly it could be what triggered the decision to do it in the plane full of people (revenge) instead of alone.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Very much so. Like 'consumption' or 'dropsy'. And it is often a catch-all diagnosis for such things as bi-polar disorder and even schizophrenia. The treatment is a shotgun approach, flooding the brain with serotonin, which often leads to collateral mental health issues and personality changes. Pilots need to be very careful with antidepressents.

          I've gotten to know a few bi-polar, manic-depressive and schizophenic people. Things can shift very quickly. It's wild speculation of course, but I would not be surprised if this F/O had no intention of crashing the plane until the CPT left the cockpit and the sudden impulse took over.
          now he's a medical/psych expert?!?!

          tell me great one, what is the difference between bi-polar and manic depressive?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
            5)
            I mean, I am 10 years older than this youngster. Was there nobody, who said to this ill person, you are only good when you are happy.

            I mean, successful people always have an older friend,
            auf Deutsch: Mentor, Tutor, Berater, Fürsprecher,
            Yes!!! This is what bothers me most of all. Piloting should be an apprenticeship skill; it should involve a personal mentor and that mentor should recognize the frustrations and personal struggles the understudy pilot is facing. I think today, with rostering being what it is, that a young pilot is thown around the system as just another resource to exploit and doesn't have the opportunity to build a relationship with a mentor in the field. I've been trying to get my head into what this pilot was thinking, maybe with too much imagination, but I can imagine it being a cold, disappointing reality. Having been schooled as a glider pilot you are suddenly thrown into an automated cockpit where 90% of the time you are not flying anything and being rotated from one captain to the next without ever finding that mentor relationship. Maybe I'm wrong about that but that's the impression I'm getting. I see a pilot with ideals that were reduced to tasks and no one really taking him under their wing. Am I wrong in that assumption?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
              [...]
              I've been trying to get my head into what this pilot was thinking, maybe with too much imagination, but I can imagine it being a cold, disappointing reality. Having been schooled as a glider pilot you are suddenly thrown into an automated cockpit where 90% of the time you are not flying anything and being rotated from one captain to the next without ever finding that mentor relationship. Maybe I'm wrong about that but that's the impression I'm getting. I see a pilot with ideals that were reduced to tasks and no one really taking him under their wing. Am I wrong in that assumption?
              Well. "Schooled as a glider pilot" is already more than I know. Did you somewhere find a biography of that ill youngster who went to work although he did not have to?
              German TV since Tuesday always shows the amateur flight school where he began when he was 14.
              Imho, at the age of 18, he should've been able to learn
              single engine piston,
              at the same school.

              Let me provide possible steps, which in fact does contain a step between glider and an A320.
              (glider --) single engine piston -- multi engine piston --
              (if you want, another intermediate step like Beech King Air 350 --)
              737 --
              ?
              3 and 4 engined jets would be the last step, but imho you must be really old to gain a seat. You don't jump into a B744 after 630 flight hours.

              [This is my personal opinion. You might receive a different result/w different types if you ask our #1 leftseat.]

              After all these 290 posts, I don't even know if the #1 leftseat of my fav airline is a Boeing man or not.

              That's another sign for what you've also perceived, Evan. 4920 pilots or more earn their money within the LH Group (a rough guess by me). And since this airline is shown by one or two German TV stations, it is a fact. It only happens by chance that two pilots see each other again in a short period of time.
              Last edited by LH-B744; 2015-03-28, 05:01. Reason: Is he a Boeing man?
              The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
              The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
              And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
              This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                Why don't we just add a doorman?
                hahahahaha!!! What an amazing picture that one!

                Yesterday I was discussing with my mother about this matter, she was telling that someone could have avoided this murdercide, how can that sick guy fly a plane? - she told me, and I answer that AFTER events it's very easy to find a way to avoid them, but prior to them it's impossible to have EVERYTHING under enough control to be completely safe.

                I do agree with the idea that it should be at least two persons in the cockpit, actually it's not a new idea but something done by airlines for many years, isn't it?

                But in my humble opinion, you can design a system, whatever system, based on the knowledge you have, not based on the knowledge you don't have. You can be very creative thinking possibilities but obviously there is a limit and only when that limit is exceeded you can add amendments to the original design. It's a matter of adaptation.

                Personally I'm really sad for those innocent people that died absurdly because a mental ill person crossed in their lives. It can happen to anybody. RIP.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  now he's a medical/psych expert?!?!

                  tell me great one, what is the difference between bi-polar and manic depressive?
                  None, they're the same thing...........

                  What’s the Difference Between Depression and Manic Depression?
                  By JOHN M. GROHOL, PSY.D.

                  Sometimes people are confused about the differences between clinical depression and manic depression. And it’s no wonder — they both have the word “depression” in their names. That’s one of the reason’s manic depression’s clinical name changed to “bipolar disorder” many years ago, to more clearly distinguish it from regular depression.

                  The difference is really quite simple, though. Manic depression — or bipolar disorder — includes clinical depression as a part of its diagnosis. You can’t have bipolar disorder without also having had an episode of clinical depression. That’s why the two disorders shared similar names for many years, because they both include the component of clinical depression.

                  Such a depressive episode is characterized by the common signs and symptoms of depression:

                  Feeling sad and unhappy for an uninterrupted period of at least 2 weeks
                  Crying for no reason
                  Feeling worthless
                  Having very little energy
                  Losing interest in pleasurable activities
                  Because both depression and bipolar disorder share this commonality, somewhere between 10 to 25 percent of people with bipolar disorder are first mistakenly diagnosed with only depression. It’s only when the professional learns more about the person and their history do they later discover episodes of either mania or hypomania.

                  Mania Distinguishes Manic Depression from Depression

                  Mania is the distinguishing symptom of bipolar disorder and what differentiates it from clinical depression. A person with bipolar disorder has experienced one or more manic episodes (or a lesser form of mania known as hypomania). What’s a manic episode?

                  Feeling overly happy, excited or confident
                  Feeling extremely irritable, aggressive and “wired”
                  Having uncontrollable racing thoughts or speech
                  Thinking of yourself as overly important, gifted or special
                  Making poor judgments, such as with money, relationships or gambling
                  Engaging in risky behavior or taking more risks than you ordinarily would
                  A person with is experiencing the lesser form of mania — hypomania — may only experience a few of these symptoms, or their symptoms are far less severe and life-impairing. A person with clinical depression experiences none of these symptoms.

                  Depression isn’t the only disorder that is confused with bipolar disorder. Especially in children and teens, sometimes other disorders — such as attention deficit disorder (ADHD) — may be misdiagnosed, when the teen may instead be suffering from a form of bipolar disorder. That’s because children and teens with bipolar disorder may display hyperactive behavior — a common symptom of ADHD. Teens with bipolar disorder are especially more likely to engage in antisocial or risky behaviors, such as those involving sex, alcohol, or drugs.

                  People who are diagnosed with the more severe form of bipolar disorder are said to have Type I Bipolar Disorder. Those diagnosed with the less severe form — those who have hypomanic instead of full blown manic episodes — are said to have Type II.

                  Scientifically Reviewed
                  Last reviewed: By John M. Grohol, Psy.D. on 30 Jan 2013
                  Published on PsychCentral.com. All rights reserved.
                  Last edited by brianw999; 2015-03-28, 11:12.
                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                  Comment


                  • Clarifications

                    Originally posted by Me, responding to Gabriel
                    This is leading to fully automated planes and the elmination of pilots
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    ...That's NOT where I am leading at least...
                    Apologies, as I did not mean to suggest that you, Gabriel were calling for the elimination of on-board pilots for totally automated planes. I know where you stand.

                    Now, let me struggle for the right adjectives.

                    One interpretation of your comment was a certain futility as you were citing yet another case where things could go wrong- which lead to my comment that this could lead others to call for the elimination of pilots.

                    I do see this event possibly causing "a current" or "some suggestions" to go that direction. I doubt that current will gain too much traction, but I would not be surprised to hear it discussed, as this incident does indeed lead us to say, "Solution A, but it won't work for situation X, Ok Solultion B, well, that doesn't work for Y, C...Z....so heck, just eliminate the pilots- the stats show we don't need them" (exaggerating, but I think the point is valid).
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • A co - pilot who was supposed to be out of duty for medical reasons (whatever) managed to overcome all the current controls implemented by the industry and was able to take full control of the aircraft causing a tragedy.

                      I am wondering to see how the industry will take the appropriate measures to avoid a similar situation in the future

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                        The 27 year old Co-pilot went to work last Tuesday although he did not have to?!

                        What the hell ... fxx?!
                        I've seen that question posted by some in the media too and it seems to me an odd question to be asking... because there are a number of very plausible answers!

                        First and foremost: correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know if a pilot doesn't show up for work they don't get paid. Most people like to get paid, as it enables them to do things like eat and have a roof over their head.

                        Another possible answer that thankfully applies to many fewer people is that the pilot had chosen to end his life and his work provided the tool of choice to do that.
                        Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                        Eric Law

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by I
                          Egypt 990 didn't have a locked door
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Yes, you re re re re re re re stated it too much already.
                          But:
                          - The captain of Egipt Air didn't realize that the other one trying to crash the plane. Otherwise he could have asked for help and surely he would have gotten hundreds of volunteers.
                          I kind of disagree...I do not think an unlockable door does much to stop suicidal pilots.

                          I checked wikipedia, the scenario Egypt 990 incident is frighteningly similar.

                          Pilot goes to the Lav, the remaining guy initiates a descent.

                          I think the key difference is that the locked door enabled this guy to set the autopilot, and sit back and watch, whereas the Egypt air guy had to hand fly the plane to a more spectacular dive and fight the other pilot a bit.

                          And if he tries to go get help, I think there may be some nasty aerobatics that could very easily be done to keep folks away from the controls...Evan even hinted how easy it would be to find the over-ride button and turn the plane upside down, or maybe even dive and, we also know pretty well how to tear control surfaces off...just tap the rudder pedals a few times...

                          Bottom line: If you fix the door locks, the suicide pilot just has to do a little fun had flying, instead of using the autopilot.

                          (Bad sarcastic comment that I don't truly mean- I guess since no one knows how to fly a plane any more, maybe an un-lockable door is a valid deterrent)
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • Can't think of any solutions to this scenario that do not have inherrent weaknesses to other scenarios.

                            I fear whatever solutions to come will further erode the pleasure that was the freedom of flight and travel.

                            Comment


                            • Bild reporting in an interview with his girlfriend that she recalls him saying "One day I'm going to do something that will change the whole system, and everyone will know my name and remember."

                              She also suggests that he was distraught in realizing that his mental health issues made his dream of becoming a Lufthansa long-haul captain impossible.

                              So he may have just been biding his time, awaiting the right moment to strike.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                Google translation from an Argentinian newspaper. I hope it's not true:
                                Lubitz suffered bulling and harassment of fellow airline employees, as reported by the British newspaper DailyMail. "Andy Tomato" was the nickname that some pairs called the young man of 28, referring to his past in the same company as flight attendant. "He was very ambitious, but it was considered second class because he had been an assistant in the passenger cabin," a friend told the German newspaper Bild..
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                What kind of sick person would make that up? German's do love to shame. It's probably true.(...)
                                1. Lufthansa's CEO said in one of the press conferences that it is not unusual for fully trained pilots within the company to work as a flight attendant after completing pilot training while they are waiting a piloting position to open.

                                2. BILD is Germany's answer to Britain's Sun. Now go figure how reliable the information by the (probably handsomely paid) ex(!)-girlfriend of that F/O is...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X