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777 Crash and Fire at SFO

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  • 3WE, it's my understanding that the autothrottles were "armed" but not engaged. That would go a long way toward explaining how the airplane got low and slow, before the real problem got sorted out about 20 seconds too late.

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    • On the subject of use of FLCH for approach, here's the report into a Thai Boeing 777 conducting a NDB approach in FLCH:

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      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        Ok, enough of that.

        BoeingBobby, could you please stop asking everyone about their qualifications to post their thoughts or opinions in this forum?

        Gabriel, you are absolutely correct, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I have NO problem with that at all. What I DO have a problem with is some of the ridiculous and absurd statements made by some of the posters.

        You and some of the others here seem to have a very good understanding about aviation. Just because you are not flying a “heavy” around the globe does not diminish your ability to see what has transpired here.

        However, when I see statements such as “These pilots need to have their certificates and passports revoked, and the air carrier’s ability to operate into the U.S.” is pure rubbish.

        Mr. Avion1 who seems to think that our FAA has the power to initiate a letter of investigation, let alone a 709 ride to Korean pilots, flying a Korean registered aircraft, I am willing to bet on Korean pilots certificates, is ludicrous. I would also bet that none of the flight crew on board even hold an FAA issued license.

        And yes Mr.3WE, I am a little older (61) than some of you here. I also think I have earned the right to express MY opinions. Being that I have been flying for a living for over 43 years, and have logged 20000+ hours, 9000+ in all models of the 747, I certainly deserve the right to express an “expert” opinion. And no all my parts are working just fine thank you. But that was very mature of you to be so concerned.

        I have only asked for someone’s qualifications when I see them posting something that seems to be way outside their area of expertise.

        I will reiterate what I said in an earlier post. In MY OPINION, these guys F****d up. Humans do that from time to time. This is one of the reasons there is more than one crew member on the flight deck. I have no experience in the 777 so I do not know what the number is, but on all models of the 747 except the new -8 which is what I mostly fly now, the threshold crossing height in a minimum of 53’, 57’ for the -8. Why the pilot flying was so intent on putting it down on the “first brick” of the runway is totally beyond me. Even though the glideslope was out for the runway, he could have just done what is now called a non-ILS approach (They are no longer referred to as non-precision) using VNAV. We do visual approaches all the time when the weather is good and it has been a short day. We are pilots, most of us do this because we love to fly. Let’s face it, the most fun we have is landing and taking off, the rest is mostly hours of letting “George” fly.

        None of my comments were intended to insult anyone here. And if that’s was the way it came across I profusely apologize.

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        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          And what exactly is your job title at this airline? Do you think because you witnessed another aircraft accident you have the qualifications to justify your remark validating AVION1's statement for revoking an airlines right to fly into the U.S and having the certificates of two flight crew members revoked?

          You are aware they call this an accident right? I seriously doubt these guys decided to do this for fun.
          Yes, I do feel qualified.

          A friend's husband is a pilot and he has done much training and CRM with airlines overseas. He says that the cultural norms haven't changed and it is extremely difficult to train the pilots.

          I know the fellow pilots will defend these guys until the run out of breath.

          They f***** up. Boeing did not. The aircraft did not, or at this point it seems as there is no reason to believe it did.
          I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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          • Originally posted by Evan View Post
            The pilot in question, assumed to be PF at the time, is reported to have flown into SFO numerous times as PIC in other types (although perhaps not without ILS). I think the more appropriate question is: was this non-standard approach adequately planned and briefed in the cockpit.

            I still think this appears to be CFIT rather than stall. Given the culture, I wouldn't be at all surprised if cockpit gradient played a role here.

            (Myndee, could you possibly remove the Steelers livery shot or make it your avatar? It's great but it really eats up the page if you post a lot. Thanks.)
            I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. I will get rid of it.
            I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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            • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
              I will do one better than that, I will leave you all to your ignorance.
              When I see what most of you write here, it is no better than the press.

              Enjoy
              Oh, stop. Don't get all upset.

              However, when you poke people with sticks and rub your qualifications in the wounds, it makes you look pompous.
              I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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              • Originally posted by saupatel View Post
                I agree with Deadstick too. That would take all the fun out of it .
                We'd have to close this forum!

                Thanks for the welcome.
                I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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                • When I am working flight ops I use flight aware as a backup to our movement control system. It has about a five minute lag time and sometimes it's not even close to being correct.

                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  AFAIK, FlightAware works with a network of voluntary users that receive ADS-B data in their computers (using a specialized but not very sophisticated or expensive equipment) and upload it in real time to the FlightAware network, very much like LiveATC.

                  I guess that the emission of each signal is every time the transponder is interrogated by a radar or another airborne equipment (another ADS-B, or a TCAS). If that's correct (and this is really a guess because I have no knowledge), then the data will not be equally spaced in time.

                  I don't know if the ADS-B data has a tag time in it. I don't think so. So the time tag may be put by someone downstream (the receiver, the user's compurter, FlightAware servers...).

                  So the answer to your question is... I don't know!
                  I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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                  • Originally posted by Black Ram View Post
                    No offense or disrespect meant, and no intention of starting an argument, but I have this one question, which has been bugging me. We've talked a lot about different philosophies and how "unnatural" the Airbus flight control philosophy can be. No doubt this 777 crash looks like nothing more than very poor airmanship. But if they lost track of their speed some 35 seconds prior to impact and continued decelerating, would Alpha Floor have prevented this? Does Boeing have an equivalent to Alpha Floor? And what happened to the seat-of-the-pants advantage of using a yoke with feedback and manual trim?
                    Again, don't want to start a general argument, just curious about the mechanic of this one accident. Maybe a little early for this, but for me this is almost without question poor airmanship, poor CRM and the lately very popular "failure to monitor instruments and flight parameters".
                    You almost need a degree in crashing the 777. I stick to my prediction that CRM failed to save this aircraft. I hope I am wrong.
                    I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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                    • Originally posted by phoneman View Post
                      Who are you referring to,the 191 pilots or their kin?
                      No, the fellow pilots! They are a clique. Ever been to that "other" forum?
                      I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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                      • Originally posted by Myndee View Post
                        Yes, I do feel qualified.

                        A friend's husband is a pilot and he has done much training and CRM with airlines overseas. He says that the cultural norms haven't changed and it is extremely difficult to train the pilots.

                        This is EXACTLY the kind of statement I was talking about.

                        Not to coin a phrase, but did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

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                        • This is way way better than what happened with Colgan, though it seems to me there are also some parallels. But it does sort of confuse me in the aspect of human factors. They said, did they not, the pilot was flying visually. OK, so can a pilot really "see" how fast the plane is going? Even with thousands of hours, can he detect visually that his speed is too low? My head says no, that he has to do what most of us do, namely somehow blend our senses with our instruments. I can't imagine an airline pilot fixating on the visual scene in front of him to the point he doesn't even glance at his air speed. And, again, I have to assume the air speed instruments will given him factual information. I've never liked the technology I hear they use to "calculate" air speed, but the fact it is everywhere must mean "it is as good as we can get". If that's true, then it must have said his approach was too slow. Plus loss of altitude was too rapid. So what would they have trained him to do when those two conditions exist? I've read about "go arounds" so many times I've lost count. And I believe there was an attempt at that. But when is that not an option any more?

                          Lots more questions than answers. Just very happy families aren't burying their loved ones in this particular accident. How good an airline is Asiana? Are they better than Colgan? I notice Pinnacle now has a new name. I hope it has a new business model, too.

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                          • Interesting, some news outlets are now reporting that pilot interviews revealed that the pilot(s) had in fact manually advanced the thrust levers when a/t did not seem (to the pilots) to engage the engines...

                            Is there a flight computer 'mode' wherein on a 777, manually advancing the thrust levers forward would -not- result in response from the engines, assuming mechanically everything is AOK? That would seem odd to me, and if they did advance the levers as they say they did, that hints to me either there was a mechanical issue (ala BA incident) or they did so too late to have effect.

                            The plot thickens. Maybe.

                            [Pardon if I didnt use the correct terminology]

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                            • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              Three comments for you Myndee:

                              1) You make too many statements that are exceptionally bold, over the top and not thought out
                              2) I bet you make mistakes occasionally
                              3) There's a $20.00 word called insidious

                              Pretty much every commercial plane crash comes with highly trained pilots at the yoke.

                              These guys have done who knows how many zillions of landings, the autothrottles ALWAYS take care of their speed- and I'm reading that the autothrottles were set. 140 knots is pretty slow and mushy...probably doesn't feel all that different from 103 knots

                              Do you know if they were well rested?, or worked a tough schedule?, or maybe- purely randomly- they both had insomnia the night before?

                              Have you ever crossed the center line, or had a 10 mph speed variation while driving your car? Ever caught yourself daydreaming for just a second? Ever been tricked by a mental illusion? Ever been wrong when you knew with 100% certainty that you were right.

                              If you say "no" to the above, I'll give you a fourth comment that you are delusional.

                              The good pilots who post on this forum can all tell you of mental lapses and mistakes they have made. And aircraft mechanics have made their mistakes: AA 191, The ASA brasilia with a panel that wasn't screwed on right, Miss-trimmed Beech 1900, numerous instances of cross controlled ailerons.

                              The system is pretty good at catching those lapses, but occasionally, all the holes in the slices of swiss cheese align just so- and if it's your turn, Ms Myndee- it could be that YOU are the one who forgot to tighten some nut on the engine and now there's a smoking hole in the ground.

                              5. Bring back ITS.

                              I would hope if I F'ed up something and cost people their lives that there would be immediate action by the FAA. It would also fall to the inspectors to make sure that all is correct. It's a failsafe, just like having a second pilot n deck. They failed.

                              If they were tired, they shouldn't fly. If you are tired, you shouldn't drive.

                              The airline world is a no-excuse industry. It's either correct, or it's wrong. People die in the gray areas.

                              AA191 was a disgrace and never should have happened.
                              I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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                              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                                This is EXACTLY the kind of statement I was talking about.

                                Not to coin a phrase, but did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
                                You remain pompous. I second your motion to leave.
                                I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

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